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2 hours ago, Anthony_270 said:

Amazing how institutionalized our society is. Take teaching for example. In the old days, you just had someone who wanted to teach kids (usually an unmarried woman, often in their teens). There would be some parents in the area who wanted a teacher who would teach their kids useful skills (= usually reading, writing, basic math). Voila, you have a school.

Nowadays, it's public schooling and public schooling is a giant, expensive, bureaucratic, monopolistic tragedy. Really folks, you can get what you want in a much simpler, cheaper, more flexible way.

Actually, the original teachers of youth were clergy, ordained and lay (Christian Priests and Preachers, Jewish Rabbi, Islamic Imams, etc., each for their own religious community), who viewed such instruction as part of their spiritual and community duties. The unmarried young woman is also, relatively speaking, quite recent in history as, 'the teacher," archetype, to be honest.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Actually, the original teachers of youth were clergy, ordained and lay (Christian Priests and Preachers, Jewish Rabbi, Islamic Imams, etc., each for their own religious community), who viewed such instruction as part of their spiritual and community duties. The unmarried young woman is also, relatively speaking, quite recent in history as, 'the teacher," archetype, to be honest.

True, education was often religious in nature through European history.

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5 minutes ago, Anthony_270 said:

True, education was often religious in nature through European history.

Not just European. The Islamic World, South Asia, Southeast Asia, and East Asia as well, and pre-Christian and -Islamic cultures in Europe, the Middle-East, Central Asia, and North, West, and the Horn of Africa, in Antiquity, as well. Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican and Andean Civilizations had their religious figures involved intimately in instructing youth as well. Even a lot of tribal cultures had their shamanic figure having important junctures in the teaching of youth - especially in rites of passage and passing down songs and stories. To say specifically, "European culture," would not even remotely cover the scope that traditional religious education was prevalent in the world. It was everywhere!

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Just now, Patine said:

Not just European. The Islamic World, South Asia, Southeast Asia, and East Asia as well. Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican and Andean Civilizations had their religious figures involved intimately in instructing youth as well. Even a lot of tribal cultures had their shamanic figure having important junctures in the teaching of youth - especially in rites of passage and passing down songs and stories. To say specifically, "European culture," would not even remotely cover the scope that traditional religious education was prevalent in the world. It was everywhere!

Yes, also true. My original comment was referring the European-descendant civilization.

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3 hours ago, Anthony_270 said:

Amazing how institutionalized our society is. Take teaching for example. In the old days, you just had someone who wanted to teach kids (usually an unmarried woman, often in their teens). There would be some parents in the area who wanted a teacher who would teach their kids useful skills (= usually reading, writing, basic math). Voila, you have a school.

Nowadays, it's public schooling and public schooling is a giant, expensive, bureaucratic, monopolistic tragedy. Really folks, you can get what you want in a much simpler, cheaper, more flexible way.

I increasingly distrust institutions and think this transcends politics.

Existing institutions can't be reformed in my opinion and probably should be dismantled or at the least replaced with parallel institutions (for disintermediation).

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Just now, Anthony_270 said:

Yes, also true. My original comment was referring the European-descendant civilization.

And, even, then, the original non-religious pedagogues were men (from Socrates to the old Renaissance University types, and beyond, and even at the local level). Again, the unmarried young woman is relatively quite recent as a teaching role.

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6 minutes ago, populist86 said:

I increasingly distrust institutions and think this transcends politics.

Institutions can't be reformed in my opinion and probably should be dismantled or at the least replaced with parallel institutions (for disintermediation).

Outright dismantling them would be Anarchistic and Deconstructionist, and even Nihilistic, given the empirical effect such an action would have on society. However, they CAN be reformed (it's not like laws of physics or Divine law govern them), it just takes real social and political WILL and DEDICATION - something that I know is is short supply among current political leadership - which is another reason I think they (and the major, dominant and incumbent political parties and factions they represent) should be replaced with new leaders and new visions wholesale, but not just vapid and incendiary populists, but those with real and alternative plans and ideas for betterment, reform, and change.

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13 minutes ago, Patine said:

And, even, then, the original non-religious pedagogues were men (from Socrates to the old Renaissance University types, and beyond, and even at the local level). Again, the unmarried young woman is relatively quite recent as a teaching role.

Wasn't the point. Point was that it's not that complicated to start up, and there was much less bureaucracy and cost involved.

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Just now, Anthony_270 said:

Wasn't the point. Point was that it's not that complicated to start up, and there was much less bureaucracy and cost involved.

There was also much less to teach with the hopes of success in life back then. It's not JUST bureaucracy and costs. The "three R's," just aren't enough, anymore, unless the student is content with a potential future life in an unskilled labour or services job, or has the gumption for a lot of self-education (and can actually be accredited meaningfully for it).

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15 minutes ago, populist86 said:

I increasingly distrust institutions and think this transcends politics.

Existing institutions can't be reformed in my opinion and probably should be dismantled or at the least replaced with parallel institutions (for disintermediation).

Ya, it's often really tough to reform existing institutions. Sometimes they can be reformed, sometimes they just collapse once given a little shove at a certain point.

I'm all for building new institutions, but really, we don't need so many. Less, more decentralized, more local, IMHO. Why do we have centralized curricula? There's no need for it - let local teachers and parents make their own choices.

Science is another example. Originally, it was a bunch of amateurs paid little to nothing. They beat the pants off of science nowadays in breakthroughs.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

There was also much less to teach with the hopes of success in life back then.

Don't think this is true at all. Trades have always been with us. Cooper, Foster, Fletcher, Smith, and so on. Even things like 'roboticist' have historical analogues - people making machinery, wind-mills, and so on.

In the past, the large majority of people were the equivalent of small-business owners - either they ran a farm, or a trade.

Nowadays, the large majority of people are the historical equivalent of servants, we just have a different name for it - 'employees'.

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1 minute ago, Anthony_270 said:

Ya, it's often really tough to reform existing institutions. Sometimes they can be reformed, sometimes they just collapse once given a little shove at a certain point.

I'm all for building new institutions, but really, we don't need so many. Less, more decentralized, more local, IMHO. Why do we have centralized curricula? There's no need for it - let local teachers and parents make their own choices.

Science is another example. Originally, it was a bunch of amateurs paid little to nothing. They beat the pants off of science nowadays in breakthroughs.

What a "Thomas Jefferson view," of the issue. Unfortunately, his ideals would be woefully unworkable and out-of-place (and highly out-of-touch) in the modern world for so many reasons - just like your similar emulations of the moods of his purviews are. The world doesn't work this way anymore - for better and for worse - and pretending it does, or can realistically be made to do so is part of the, "toxic nostalgia," I had brought up a while ago, here, in another context. It's one thing to reminisce over "the good ol' days," - the problem comes in the catastrophes, chaos, and even atrocities of actively trying to, "bring them back."

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2 minutes ago, Anthony_270 said:

Don't think this is true at all. Trades have always been with us. Cooper, Foster, Fletcher, Smith, and so on. Even things like 'roboticist' have historical analogues - people making machinery, wind-mills, and so on.

In the past, the large majority of people were the equivalent of small-business owners - either they ran a farm, or a trade.

Nowadays, the large majority of people are the historical equivalent of servants, we just have a different name for it - 'employees'.

I still think you're trying to apply old paradigms that just don't work and are not extant anymore. Plus, those older forms of education de-emphasized the social sciences, or "humanities," as they were once called, except in a very cursory and parochial viewpoint - and THAT was a huge shortcoming, right there.

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1 minute ago, Anthony_270 said:

😊

Can you name some of the reasons the picture I outline above is woefully unworkable?

If you have to ask, then I don't even know where to start... 😒

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4 hours ago, Anthony_270 said:

Amazing how institutionalized our society is. Take teaching for example. In the old days, you just had someone who wanted to teach kids (usually an unmarried woman, often in their teens). There would be some parents in the area who wanted a teacher who would teach their kids useful skills (= usually reading, writing, basic math). Voila, you have a school.

Nowadays, it's public schooling and public schooling is a giant, expensive, bureaucratic, monopolistic tragedy. Really folks, you can get what you want in a much simpler, cheaper, more flexible way.

It's brainwashing today plain and simple. The idea of thinking for yourself is "cancelled" in favor of group think and mob mentality. 

You question anything that is taught to you, you're labeled crazy or evil. And the agenda most of these people at the top have only benefit certain groups and totally demonize and goes against certain groups specifically. 

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Just now, PoliticalPundit said:

It's brainwashing today plain and simple. The idea of thinking for yourself is "cancelled" in favor of group think and mob mentality. 

You question anything that is taught to you, you're labeled crazy or evil. And the agenda most of these people at the top have only benefit certain groups and totally demonize and goes against certain groups specifically. 

While I agree things are headed in such a dire direction in certain areas, and especially on "hot-button, zeitgeist," topics, I don't think we've YET reached quite the level of Orwellian "1984" Oceanian "1+1=3 or you're committing treason, just like Emmanuel Goldstein, who must be mandatorily hated for 5 minutes every day," level that you seem to be portraying. But the tendencies and directions are indeed worrisome. I will agree with you (for once!) on the dark social path one sees being paved, if not how far we are in that direction at this point. But it is something that worries me, too.

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58 minutes ago, Patine said:

While I agree things are headed in such a dire direction in certain areas, and especially on "hot-button, zeitgeist," topics, I don't think we've YET reached quite the level of Orwellian "1984" Oceanian "1+1=3 or you're committing treason, just like Emmanuel Goldstein, who must be mandatorily hated for 5 minutes every day," level that you seem to be portraying. But the tendencies and directions are indeed worrisome. I will agree with you (for once!) on the dark social path one sees being paved, if not how far we are in that direction at this point. But it is something that worries me, too.

Oh we're beyond saving. All the mainstream companies in tech and media have already pushed up past the point of no return. 

I've seen it in the last 3 conservative nominees (Bush, Romney, Trump) same ways trying to make them appear as pure evil, murderers (Romney and Bain capital.. Bush is "worst president of all time" same w trump etc..).. people really think if Cruz or Rubio won there would have been any different in media coverage?? It would have been the same "evil horrific people" where you're an awful human being if you even consider voting for them. Impossible to have any true thoughts or thinking for yourself in a school system designed to brainwash otherwise.

 

I wonder @Anthony_270 if you'd add a feature in your game (on/off) where no matter what conservative candidate wins in 2020/2016/even 2012 arguably they get extremely negative press coverage. Would be an interesting experiment. 

 

I think it's bc of the synergy of religious beliefs/hot topic issues (social justice) and economic/disproportionate class system that drives it (working class anger). Especially all the abortion, gay marriage, etc issues where people take good vs evil stances. 

 

But I digress.. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, PoliticalPundit said:

I've seen it in the last 3 conservative nominees (Bush, Romney, Trump) same ways trying to make them appear as pure evil, murderers (Romney and Bain capital.. Bush is "worst president of all time" same w trump etc..).. people really think if Cruz or Rubio won there would have been any different in media coverage?? It would have been the same "evil horrific people" where you're an awful human being if you even consider voting for them. Impossible to have any true thoughts or thinking for yourself in a school system designed to brainwash otherwise.

Of course, this statement assumes conservative (Trump is NOT a conservative, ideologically, BTW, in case you were hoodwinked, there - the others you listed, there, are, however), Republican candidates are the victims and only salvation for this issue, and not a full contributive part and factor of the problem. The American political Duopoly, as a whole, as well as the soulless big corporations, moneyed lobby and special interest groups, and plutocratic oligarchs behind both parties (and flagrantly bribing them to kowtow to their agendas and ignore their own constituents) is the real threat, and a far greater threat in totality to American good governance, freedom, viability, electoral and Constitutional adherence, and respect for rights than ANY foreign nation, ideology, or "terrorist," group. There will - and can - be no advancement, betterment, prosperity, and needed change and moving forward under a Government by one or both Duopoly Parties, and will not happen until BOTH Duopoly parties are voted out of power in the same election.

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5 hours ago, Anthony_270 said:

Amazing how institutionalized our society is. Take teaching for example. In the old days, you just had someone who wanted to teach kids (usually an unmarried woman, often in their teens). There would be some parents in the area who wanted a teacher who would teach their kids useful skills (= usually reading, writing, basic math). Voila, you have a school.

Nowadays, it's public schooling and public schooling is a giant, expensive, bureaucratic, monopolistic tragedy. Really folks, you can get what you want in a much simpler, cheaper, more flexible way.

You looking for a hot virgin teacher waifu or something?

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4 minutes ago, Cenzonico said:

You looking for a hot virgin teacher waifu or something?

Instead of a frumpy old priest, a prude man in a bad-fitting suit and round lens glasses, or a mustered-out army sergeant, who were also very likely (in some places, more likely) candidates for the teacher in the set-up he's alluding to. And don't forget the dreaded switch and dunce cap.

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30 minutes ago, Patine said:

Of course, this statement assumes conservative (Trump is NOT a conservative, ideologically, BTW, in case you were hoodwinked, there - the others you listed, there, are, however), Republican candidates are the victims and only salvation for this issue, and not a full contributive part and factor of the problem. The American political Duopoly, as a whole, as well as the soulless big corporations, moneyed lobby and special interest groups, and plutocratic oligarchs behind both parties (and flagrantly bribing them to kowtow to their agendas and ignore their own constituents) is the real threat, and a far greater threat in totality to American good governance, freedom, viability, electoral and Constitutional adherence, and respect for rights than ANY foreign nation, ideology, or "terrorist," group. There will - and can - be no advancement, betterment, prosperity, and needed change and moving forward under a Government by one or both Duopoly Parties, and will not happen until BOTH Duopoly parties are voted out of power in the same election.

I agree it's both parties, but you must admit how biased the media/tech is against conservatives. I can say it's both parties but conservatives get a lot more unfair treatment, but liberals can't admit that. That's the difference.  

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35 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

Ah yes, I believe Liz Cheney's "cancelling" is decried by you as well. 

You are totally right, only your opinion matters. How dare I attempt to even think for myself! 

 

Pretty sad me and Patine are actually having a productive conversation and yet you need to add your totally unproductive snide 2 cents in. Im sure you're furious we can actually discuss things based on your last posts. 

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