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Just now, Conservative Elector 2 said:

However, my rational for tuition fees is, lazy people won't be eager to pay for staying at college just to stay there because they don't want to work, gain reputation or whatever.

Unless they're lazy and incompetent rich people, and think, "oh, cool, fraternity and sorority parties and and the college experience. Why the Hell not," and waste these colleges' and universities' times, and cause trouble for other students, but have fully paid for it, not on a loan or scholarship.

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3 minutes ago, Patine said:

I think I've probably answered for him quite accurately in my post just above, considering the type of politician I was mentioning as showing that attitude he seems to agree with almost down the board.

But isn't there some truth in it? Many small business owners have problem to recruit apprentices. I'd say many people now at college could help there better.

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1 minute ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Probably work in branches which have problems to recruit young people. 

Virtually completely paraphrasing (without complete commission) what I said. Probably the military, too. More mulch to die in American criminal endeavours abroad.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Unless they're lazy and incompetent rich people, and think, "oh, cool, fraternity and sorority parties and and the college experience. Why the Hell not," and waste these colleges' and universities' times, and cause trouble for other students, but have fully paid for it, not on a loan or scholarship.

Your explained type of student is one of the worst certainly.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Virtually completely paraphrasing (without complete commission) what I said. Probably the military, too. More mulch to die in American criminal endeavours abroad.

Or ready for defense at any time :P 

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1 minute ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

But isn't there some truth in it? Many small business owners have problem to recruit apprentices. I'd say many people now at college could help there better.

Maybe if it wasn't just lower and working class schools being addressed. There are a lot of middle- and upper-class students who are absolutely incompetent, lazy, unproductive, and useless, often by choice, who never get forced to do services and labour jobs, but often get stuck into jobs they're utterly unqualified, and poison their work environment and what they're doing. Neo-feudalism is a complete and failure, but you still endorse and support it's biggest proponents.

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3 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Or ready for defense at any time :P 

Since the criminal endeavours have been the active part of U.S. Military activity since the end of WW2, and the several Unconstitutional, unaccountable, and illegal (as state crimes) secret police agencies - the Gestapo, KGB, and Stasi "light," - referring, of course, to the NSA, CSC, DHS, FBI, and the domestic activities of the world's largest, most prolific, and best funded terrorist organization, the CIA - are supposed to do, 'defense," de facto, I'm unconvinced.

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Re: ditch digging

Part of my job entails administering exams to people so they can obtain or retain heavy equipment licenses.  I was talking to one 50-ish fellow who said his father had always said "Get an education or you'll wind up digging ditches!"  He dropped out of school and wound up doing just that.  He got the last laugh, however.  He works in a temperature controlled, covered backhoe cockpit and gets paid 10 times what the junior engineer out in the mud inspecting his work makes.

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5 minutes ago, pilight said:

Re: ditch digging

Part of my job entails administering exams to people so they can obtain or retain heavy equipment licenses.  I was talking to one 50-ish fellow who said his father had always said "Get an education or you'll wind up digging ditches!"  He dropped out of school and wound up doing just that.  He got the last laugh, however.  He works in a temperature controlled, covered backhoe cockpit and gets paid 10 times what the junior engineer out in the mud inspecting his work makes.

I am aware that any First World ditchdigger uses a backhoe and needs specialized training, and I've brought it up myself regarding the same quote. But, this Reagan Administration flunky seemed to out of touch and clueless, he probably was envsioning people on the side of the road with hand shovels.

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1 hour ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Thanks for a very explaining reply. One point specifically I need to refer to: of course poor people might be as or even more interested as rich people. That's certainly not a factor relevant here. However, my rational for tuition fees is, lazy people won't be eager to pay for staying at college just to stay there because they don't want to work, gain reputation or whatever. A degree nowadays becomes more or less the (higher) universal standard. And that's not the right way think. If you have like 99 BAs out of 100 people a BA doesn't mean something anymore.

In the US, it's usually parents paying or student loans paying. I think only a minority of students pay there own way here. College is so expensive, it's almost impossible for a student to pay for college on their own in the US. It has nothing to do about laziness. A parent can pay for their lazy kid to attend. I also think a lot of lazy students think they'll make it through college as they made it through high school. I'm just failing to see the argument of raising tuition as keeping out lazy students. It's just going to hurt poor people and restrict college to those that can afford it or those willing enough to take out so many loans that they're in debt for two or more decades. 

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2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I'm just failing to see the argument of raising tuition as keeping out lazy students.

Fair enough for the US, but it's different here. As said we are paying just 20€ per semester.

I also dislike those about 5 people in each class occupying the last row, taking not part in any discussion while only being at their smartphone. These are the people who should leave I think.

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3 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

I also dislike those about 5 people in each class occupying the last row, taking not part in any discussion while only being at their smartphone. These are the people who should leave I think.

That's probably a school discipline issue, not something solved by raised tuition fees.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

That's probably a school discipline issue, not something solved by raised tuition fees.

Yeah, it was certainly an independent new point. Therefore I put it into a new paragraph ;) 

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12 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Fair enough for the US, but it's different here. As said we are paying just 20€ per semester.

I also dislike those about 5 people in each class occupying the last row, taking not part in any discussion while only being at their smartphone. These are the people who should leave I think.

I usually have about 20 students. I'd say anywhere between 3 to 5 of my students are highly engaged. About 5 more of these rarely speak but do well in groups and on tests/essays. About 5 of my students do just enough, often doing well at first and then getting overwhelmed gradually. Of the remaining 5, two of them don't really try. Three of them don't try until the very end of the quarter as if somehow they'll pull an A or B out of a D or F. 

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Two points I'd like to mention: @vcczar

I don't care at all about lazy people graduating. If it's up to me they shall have their positive grade period. However, as stressed already I think the consequences for society as a whole will be devastating if too much (incompetent) people will hold degrees.

Secondly, I also think there should be an evaluation done about what is taught in high schools etc. Too much important stuff is ignored nowadays. We for example never heard about the Civil War in our history classes in school. People should also read more valuable literature like Shakespeare in class instead of things fostering weird youth subcultures. And of course political knowledge would be very fine to be delivered in class.

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1 hour ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

We for example never heard about the Civil War in our history classes in school.

Well, I didn't really hear about the War of the Austrian Succession in my high school history class. I'd be sure contextual relevance from the point of view of the national lesson makers took a significant part, there. Fun fact. Of European historians, only British ones tended to take any strong interest and make any significant, independent academic works on the U.S. Civil War.

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2 hours ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Two points I'd like to mention: @vcczar

I don't care at all about lazy people graduating. If it's up to me they shall have their positive grade period. However, as stressed already I think the consequences for society as a whole will be devastating if too much (incompetent) people will hold degrees.

Secondly, I also think there should be an evaluation done about what is taught in high schools etc. Too much important stuff is ignored nowadays. We for example never heard about the Civil War in our history classes in school. People should also read more valuable literature like Shakespeare in class instead of things fostering weird youth subcultures. And of course political knowledge would be very fine to be delivered in class.

You must be talking about Austria. Doesn't really apply here. 

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18 minutes ago, vcczar said:

You must be talking about Austria. Doesn't really apply here. 

Indeed, I do.

I just needed to clarify that I personally believe that people who might be lazy don't have to be bad people as well. I am not in a position to decide whether one specific person should fail a class or not. I don't hold a grudge against anyone and for all I care they shall graduate, even if they are constantly at their phone. That's none of my business. I just think the development on the whole is wrong.

Sure, that one was about Austria's education system.

 

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

Well, I didn't really hear about the War of the Austrian Succession in my high school history class.

Well, neither did I. That should tell you a lot about the Austrian education system.

You should also note the enormous social change brought by the civil war. I'd certainly think it's nearly as necessary to be studied as WWII (and WWI). 

1 hour ago, Patine said:

Fun fact. Of European historians, only British ones tended to take any strong interest and make any significant, independent academic works on the U.S. Civil War.

Too bad.

We also ignored the English Civil War to almost it's entirety... also very remarkable piece of history I believe.

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9 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Well, neither did I. That should tell you a lot about the Austrian education system.

You should also note the enormous social change brought by the civil war. I'd certainly think it's nearly as necessary to be studied as WWII (and WWI). 

Too bad.

We also ignored the English Civil War to almost it's entirety... also very remarkable piece of history I believe.

I wouldn't downplay the War of the Austrian Succession that much. It had a big impact on succession laws, the course of the Enlightenment (without which, the very foundations and institutions of the American and French Republics, and all heavily influenced, and the very concept of inalienable rights protected and guaranteed from Government themselves, and separation of power, and standardized judicial proceedings, would never have existed), and, Prussia's successes almost certainly determined the timetable of the 1871 unification of the German Empire, whether it would even occur, and whether Prussia or Austria would lead such a union. But not a big deal at all? Complete insignificant small potatoes of little note compare to the English and U.S. Civil Wars?

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26 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Indeed, I do.

I just needed to clarify that I personally believe that people who might be lazy don't have to be bad people as well. I am not in a position to decide whether one specific person should fail a class or not. I don't hold a grudge against anyone and for all I care they shall graduate, even if they are constantly at their phone. That's none of my business. I just think the development on the whole is wrong.

Sure, that one was about Austria's education system.

 

I feel like American schools, if anything, teach the important stuff, but then kind of white wash the controversial aspects. History in schools becomes patriotic propaganda in some states, at least. I like history with warts and all. 

You mentioned Shakespeare. The thing I don't like is that students are frequently reading Shakespeare with updated 21st century language replacing Shakespeare's language. I understand the purpose, but the you loose all the music and artistry in the language. Basically, it turns into learning only about Shakespeare's plots, actions, characters (to a degree), and not about the language. That said, so few teachers probably can teach Shakespeare because they don't understand Early Modern English enough to understand it themself. 

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34 minutes ago, vcczar said:

You mentioned Shakespeare. The thing I don't like is that students are frequently reading Shakespeare with updated 21st century language replacing Shakespeare's language. I understand the purpose, but the you loose all the music and artistry in the language. Basically, it turns into learning only about Shakespeare's plots, actions, characters (to a degree), and not about the language. That said, so few teachers probably can teach Shakespeare because they don't understand Early Modern English enough to understand it themself. 

Sure. He is my #1 playwright, therefore I mention him regularly. It's true but since we never touched Shakespeare in English or in a German translation, it would be fine, if we at least had a modern version to focus on characters etc.

I'd also say Marlowe should be in any curriculum of a high school.

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4 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Sure. He is my #1 playwright, therefore I mention him regularly. It's true but since we never touched Shakespeare in English or in a German translation, it would be fine, if we at least had a modern version to focus on characters etc.

I'd also say Marlowe should be in any curriculum of a high school.

I think Marlowe is essential for college, but I think in High School, you don't really have space for both Shakespeare and Marlowe. 

I think if you teach Marlowe, you also have to teach Ben Jonson. Marlowe was the rival for Shakespeare in his early career and Jonson was the rival in his late career. Marlowe's focus was tragedy and Jonson's was comedy. Shakespeare did both, obviously. Other playwrights of this time that I've read that warrant attention are John Lyly, Robert Greene, Thomas Middleton, John Fletcher, Francis Beaumont, Thomas Dekker, George Peele, George Chapman, and maybe two or three others. However, all of these only have one great play worth teaching each, even though they have many good plays worth staging. I think John Lyly is highly underrated. 

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1 hour ago, vcczar said:

I feel like American schools, if anything, teach the important stuff, but then kind of white wash the controversial aspects. History in schools becomes patriotic propaganda in some states, at least. I like history with warts and all. 

You mentioned Shakespeare. The thing I don't like is that students are frequently reading Shakespeare with updated 21st century language replacing Shakespeare's language. I understand the purpose, but the you loose all the music and artistry in the language. Basically, it turns into learning only about Shakespeare's plots, actions, characters (to a degree), and not about the language. That said, so few teachers probably can teach Shakespeare because they don't understand Early Modern English enough to understand it themself. 

The linguistic issue is very profound indeed, as I am reminded by a well-known scene in a well-known science-fiction movie.

"It sounds better in it's original Klingon," General Chang, quoting Hamlet, "Star Trek VI: the Undiscovered Country."

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23 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I think if you teach Marlowe, you also have to teach Ben Jonson. Marlowe was the rival for Shakespeare in his early career and Jonson was the rival in his late career. Marlowe's focus was tragedy and Jonson's was comedy. 

I agree.

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Shakespeare did both, obviously. Other playwrights of this time that I've read that warrant attention are John Lyly, Robert Greene, Thomas Middleton, John Fletcher, Francis Beaumont, Thomas Dekker, George Peele, George Chapman, and maybe two or three others. However, all of these only have one great play worth teaching each, even though they have many good plays worth staging. I think John Lyly is highly underrated. 

Great, I have to admit I don't know most of them. I probably know Middleton the best out of these.

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