"3rd Debate" Thread

[admin_270 784]

4 minutes ago, CPE said:

some fields require a certain level of intelligence and reasoning capabilities to be successful in

Basically all fields require certain abilities and kinds of intelligence. 

[admin_270 784]

16 minutes ago, CPE said:

how will universities who drop the standardized testing requirements filter out applicants for certain programs

When I was hiring coders (now I do it myself or work with 3rd parties), I didn't care if applicants had a university degree. There are pretty simple ways to get an idea for how good someone is at doing the relevant work.

For universities, it's a bit trickier because you're looking for capabilities and motivation. Compounding the problem is many programs aren't about specific career tracks.

How do apprenticeship programs work?

[vcczar 1,224]

39 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

If I were a Dem, I would be very upset if this were the case. Keep your mind in the game, focus 100% on the win, don't start sizing the curtains, don't leave anything to chance.

I agree with that. Now that the debates are over, I'm expecting Biden to be on campaign every day. 

[admin_270 784]

1 hour ago, vcczar said:

I agree with that. Now that the debates are over, I'm expecting Biden to be on campaign every day. 

Yes, I would hope so. Having said that, Biden is in the crucial battleground state of ... Delaware, today. 

[PoliticalPundit 283]

Rewatching the debate: - Biden was so mad for a good amount of the debate. It was fine for one segment but seemed coached over like.. 3 segments. 

[pilight 232]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:44 PM, PoliticalPundit said:

There are so many undecided voters that want to vote for Trump but are hesitant bc of X , this probably sealed it. I feel much more comfortable than before the debate started on his chances.

The huge early voting numbers belie the concept that there are large numbers of undecideds

[CPE 97]

On 10/23/2020 at 2:14 PM, pilight said:

Standardized tests do a poor job of measuring whether someone has that potential

They are a good baseline for determining how developed an individuals reasoning and critical thinking skills are.  Are you trying to tell me that two individuals, one with a 10 on ACT English/writing, and one with a 30, are going to have the same level of development when it comes to critical thinking skills/ability to properly construct arguments and otherwise utilize the English language?  Which individual has the higher odds of making it out of law school?  They should not be the end all of determining admissions into a program, but they are absolutely required to filter the chaff from the wheat for certain fields.

On 10/23/2020 at 2:15 PM, admin_270 said:

Basically all fields require certain abilities and kinds of intelligence. 

On 10/23/2020 at 2:28 PM, admin_270 said:

When I was hiring coders (now I do it myself or work with 3rd parties), I didn't care if applicants had a university degree. There are pretty simple ways to get an idea for how good someone is at doing the relevant work.

For universities, it's a bit trickier because you're looking for capabilities and motivation. Compounding the problem is many programs aren't about specific career tracks.

How do apprenticeship programs work?

I agree with your assertion that software development is an exception to the rule when it comes to the relevancy of degrees/standardized forms of testing.  I would go as far as to say that a college degree is not necessarily worth the investment in today's world unless you are studying a STEM field/law/medicine/accounting/something else relevant with practical skills.  However, certain fields (law, medicine, etc.) do require a certain amount of proficiency in reasoning skills in order to be successful.  Even with software development, do you think someone poorly versed in mathematical concepts will understand the reasoning behind a 3-dimensional array (for instance), or how certain algorithms function?

[admin_270 784]

8 minutes ago, CPE said:

Even with software development, do you think someone poorly versed in mathematical concepts will understand the reasoning behind a 3-dimensional array (for instance), or how certain algorithms function?

No, they need to have some familiarity with math. But for the vast majority of coding positions, it's no higher than high school level algebra.

[vcczar 1,224]

13 minutes ago, CPE said:

They are a good baseline for determining how developed an individuals reasoning and critical thinking skills are.  Are you trying to tell me that two individuals, one with a 10 on ACT English/writing, and one with a 30, are going to have the same level of development when it comes to critical thinking skills/ability to properly construct arguments and otherwise utilize the English language?  Which individual has the higher odds of making it out of law school?  They should not be the end all of determining admissions into a program, but they are absolutely required to filter the chaff from the wheat for certain fields.

I agree with your assertion that software development is an exception to the rule when it comes to the relevancy of degrees/standardized forms of testing.  I would go as far as to say that a college degree is not necessarily worth the investment in today's world unless you are studying a STEM field/law/medicine/accounting/something else relevant with practical skills.  However, certain fields (law, medicine, etc.) do require a certain amount of proficiency in reasoning skills in order to be successful.  Even with software development, do you think someone poorly versed in mathematical concepts will understand the reasoning behind a 3-dimensional array (for instance), or how certain algorithms function?

 

3 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

No, they need to have some familiarity with math. But for the vast majority of coding positions, it's no higher than high school level algebra.

I have a friend that I've seen hack into computers, bypass passwords, etc., and he's a coder. He also doesn't have a college degree. He flunked out of the University of Texas, mainly because he skipped classes to play PC games. He now makes a great salary doing something regarding computers. 

[admin_270 784]

17 minutes ago, CPE said:

I would go as far as to say that a college degree is not necessarily worth the investment in today's world unless you are studying a STEM field/law/medicine/accounting/something else relevant with practical skills.

Law and medicine simply require that you go through university - they have professional organizations that control the flow of people into it and you can't be a lawyer or doctor without going to university. (I don't think this is quite true - I think in some places you can simply challenge the bar exam, or whatever it's called.)

For something like a GP, not sure how important abilities that would translate to a high SAT score are. There's some applicability, for sure.

Good bed-side manner, good listening skills, sympatico with values, ... a good dose of common-sense.

Of course on top of that they need to have a solid grasp of a large amount of relevant info, good problem solving abilities when it comes to health issues, curiosity to stay on top of new breakthroughs, and so on.

[admin_270 784]

18 minutes ago, CPE said:

proficiency in reasoning skills

I do not find college grads have this to a large degree. 

[CPE 97]

29 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

I do not find college grads have this to a large degree. 

Lol.  I personally believe that it depends on the field that was studied.  Liberal arts are much more subjective, with a larger potential to be politicized, compared to anything involving the sciences.

 

45 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

No, they need to have some familiarity with math. But for the vast majority of coding positions, it's no higher than high school level algebra.

 

38 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I have a friend that I've seen hack into computers, bypass passwords, etc., and he's a coder. He also doesn't have a college degree. He flunked out of the University of Texas, mainly because he skipped classes to play PC games. He now makes a great salary doing something regarding computers. 

I guess it would partially depend on the jurisdiction where you were educated.  I did not take a proper pre-calculus course until I was at the tertiary level of schooling; different areas invest differently into educational programs.  I agree with the premise that a degree is unnecessary for software development, but I would look at it as a plus if I were hiring someone.  The theoretical side of computer science can be nice to understand as well.

 

40 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Law and medicine simply require that you go through university - they have professional organizations that control the flow of people into it and you can't be a lawyer or doctor without going to university. (I don't think this is quite true - I think in some places you can simply challenge the bar exam, or whatever it's called.)

For something like a GP, not sure how important abilities that would translate to a high SAT score are. There's some applicability, for sure.

Good bed-side manner, good listening skills, sympatico with values, ... a good dose of common-sense.

Of course on top of that they need to have a solid grasp of a large amount of relevant info, good problem solving abilities when it comes to health issues, curiosity to stay on top of new breakthroughs, and so on.

Yes, you used to be able to do an apprenticeship in place of taking the bar exam in many jurisdiction; however, that practice has died out for the most part.  I don't think that standardized testing is the be all, end all, but I do think that it is a good indicator of a ballpark idea where someone is at intellectually.

[pilight 232]

18 hours ago, CPE said:

They are a good baseline for determining how developed an individuals reasoning and critical thinking skills are.  Are you trying to tell me that two individuals, one with a 10 on ACT English/writing, and one with a 30, are going to have the same level of development when it comes to critical thinking skills/ability to properly construct arguments and otherwise utilize the English language?  Which individual has the higher odds of making it out of law school?  They should not be the end all of determining admissions into a program, but they are absolutely required to filter the chaff from the wheat for certain fields.

Standardized tests are terrible predictors of academic success.

The one with a better chance of graduating is the one with a better GPA, regardless of a single test score.  There have been tons of studies showing this.  I'll take the A student with a 10 over the C student with 30 every time.

[Hestia11 567]

Just now, pilight said:

Standardized tests are terrible predictors of academic success.

The one with a better chance of graduating is the one with a better GPA, regardless of a single test score.  There have been tons of studies showing this.  I'll take the A student with a 10 over the C student with 30 every time.

On this, I heartily disagree. Some people may be taking harder classes and taking B's and C's in Calculus is better than a student taking easy classes and getting A's. 

[CPE 97]

On 10/25/2020 at 1:25 PM, pilight said:

Standardized tests are terrible predictors of academic success.

The one with a better chance of graduating is the one with a better GPA, regardless of a single test score.  There have been tons of studies showing this.  I'll take the A student with a 10 over the C student with 30 every time.

Problem is that GPA's are calculated differently in certain areas.  Some institutions use weighted methods, some non-weighted, hence the whole reason behind standardized testing : a uniform way of comparing students from all over the world on the same scale.

I think it depends as well on what courses you take.  If you are in the US, I assume that there will be a large degree of separation in difficulty of AP/Honours courses compared to regular ones.  GPA is a hard thing to weigh universally.

[pilight 232]

You would think differing classes would be an issue, but studies continually show that it's not.  A-students from mediocre or even poor public high schools regularly out-perform C-students from prestigious private high schools at the college level almost every time, despite doing worse on standardized tests.

Kids with an eye on college don't generally schedule easy classes because they're smart enough to realize it won't actually help them in the long run.  Intelligent kids who loaf their way through high school with Cs usually discover that won't cut it at college, particularly in a specialized major.  They either drop out or become business majors. 

[NYConservative 39]

do i know that im late as fuck? yes
do i care? no

less of a shitshow but still hilarious. from the debate i've seen since clearly we've all seen different debates trump got a complete win.