State of the Race: 11 Days Left

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

14 hours ago, Wiw said:

...you are so pro-hunter and I have zero sympathy for you.

I don't know what you are talking about, but all I have to say on this is I never hunt and never advocated for it. Believe it or not.

[Wiw 92]

2 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

I don't know what you are talking about, but all I have to say on this is I never hunt and never advocated for it. Believe it or not.

You said yourself, you'd support someone who does!

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

14 hours ago, Mark_W said:

Yeah, and he's wrong.

Would you vote for a left-wing politician who hunts or a right-winger opposed to hunting? I believe the sum of positions matters. I am not a single-issue voter who says ''Oh that candidate is opposed to hunting, I am going to support him without looking on other position''.

14 hours ago, vcczar said:

He said he doesn't hunt. He's saying that whether a politician hunts or not doesn't apply to him. 

Thanks!

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

2 minutes ago, Wiw said:

You said yourself, you'd support someone who does!

Same answer as above: Would you vote for a left-wing politician who hunts or a right-winger opposed to hunting? I believe the sum of positions matters. I am not a single-issue voter who says ''Oh that candidate is opposed to hunting, I am going to support him without looking on other positions''.

I think you wouldn't vote for a Republican non-hunter, just because the Democrat hunts and I think that's perfectly fine. Voting for someone who hunts, doesn't make me a hunter as voting for a billionaire certainly doesn't make me a billionaire either.

[Wiw 92]

Rgh... can't argue with that...

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

14 hours ago, admin_270 said:

But ... humans are designed to eat meat (or things like eggs). You can get around it, using various supplements (although even there it seems some highly conscientious vegans don't thrive), but that's clearly not natural.

I am not a vegetarian, as I dislike labeling and making a big deal out of nothing, but I am in fact trying to avoid eating meat. I think it's unhealthy and I think people should try to avoid eating other species. I am also perfectly fine with a non-meat nutrition. Meat isn't everything and I don't need it. A bread with cheese tastes way better than one with sausage actually. I am eating meat perhaps once a month, fish is more acceptable but it's not one of my main things to eat either.

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

14 hours ago, vcczar said:

I'm a Sanders-Warren Progressive and whether someone hunts or not is way down on my priority list. If Bernie Sanders was a hunter, I'd still vote for him over Ted Cruz if Cruz didn't hunt. 

100% agree. Thank you! (In fact I am proud to see an issue we can wholeheartedly agree on despite all of our political differences)

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

14 hours ago, Mark_W said:

I can appreciate if we were talking about a US election, that you realistically have two options and the Republican option is so unpalatable that you basically have to vote for whoever the democrat is. The UK and Austria both have very different electoral systems and I don't think either myself or @Conservative Elector 2 can have any valid justification for voting for a pro-hunting candidate.

I have to say I don't even know which politicians (here) hunt or not. But if you read my post on the Vienna State elections, you may understand why I am completely disappointed with every Austrian party. I vote for the People's Party because they seem to be the least worst party on the ballot.

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

12 hours ago, vcczar said:

This might be news too: CNN just reported (watching pre-debate) that Sen. McConnell told Senate Republicans to do whatever they need to win their races, even if it means distancing from Trump or criticizing Trump.

I am fine with that.

[Actinguy 862]

14 hours ago, vcczar said:

 

Didn't know he had a brother. I doubt this news matters at all unless Joe Biden is clearly involved. It's the kind of thing that only Trump supporters would probably bring up or care about, honestly. I don't even think it would register with undecideds unless Joe Biden is personally involved and aware of it. 

Obama's half-brother got deported either right before inauguration or right after.  Nobody cared.  Siblings are irrelevant.

14 hours ago, vcczar said:

This might be news too: CNN just reported (watching pre-debate) that Sen. McConnell told Senate Republicans to do whatever they need to win their races, even if it means distancing from Trump or criticizing Trump. Who knows if that is any clue on McConnell’s idea of who will be the president next year, but CNN is at least spinning it or translating it to mean he thinks Biden will be the next Pres and the GOP needs the Senate to thwart President Biden. 

Then-Speaker Paul Ryan did the same in 2016.  Trump retaliated by saying don't elect Paul Ryan.  They both won anyway, of course.

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

17 hours ago, Mark_W said:

I 100% assure you that there were plenty of people of your political persuasion (and others) who were saying very similar things about Jews in 1940s Europe & USA.

From what I know today I had gladly accepted any Jewish people fleeing the horrors in Germany.

The fact that the 2nd district of Vienna (Leopoldstadt) was the hub of Jewish life in Vienna with a population of 40% Jews in the 1920s makes me sad. Today they are still the centre of Jewish life in Vienna, but with 3% of the population.

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And you said you were against allowing in Asylum Seekers in general. We weren't talking about specific countries or wars, so I don't understand the comment about staying in a neighboring country or region.

I am talking about the ongoing crisis in Syria, Libya, the Sahel etc. 

In regards to hypothetical wars: If there were another war at the Korean peninsula I'd say central Europe would be better off with accepting asylum seekers. There are structural problems with certain immigrant groups.

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I imagine a big part of the desire to move to countries like the UK, Germany, France, Austria is that we are viewed as having more liberal attitudes, democracy, freedom, a much more stable economy & situation than other countries people could move to so they don't feel like they are fleeing a war into a country where there could imminently be another. Why are those people, less deserving of a society like ours than you or I? Because they weren't born here? I'm sorry but that is not compassion.

Yes exactly, they are not just seeking a temporary home to escape a war. They want to stay permanently in a country built in a better way. That's actually not acceptable, because people are able to build there country in a proper way as well. No one's entitled to live in a perfectly functioning country. People have to build it up, like our forefathers did. That's why I think neocolonialist policies should be brought to the table again. No one wants to enslave others, that's insane, but look at Lebanon for example. The country is a disaster, we saw that when explosion in the harbour occurred. If Macron ran it, Lebanon would be better off. I am not even a big fan of Macron, but he's still better than the caste who destroyed Lebanon. Let us share our values and ideas directly instead of indirectly. Let's create safe zones for refugees inear their homes. Let's give them food and health care. You don't have to take everyone in to be humane actually.

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Maybe the immigrants who you've encountered aren't in line with your society or 'democratic' values because their experience of your society is meeting bigoted people who don't want to welcome them, don't want to support them and don't want them to be part of their country - before they've even had a f***ing conversation with them. 

You don't believe that yourself, do you? Just because ''we are so mean to them'' immigrants develop dangerous subcultures, kill teachers who are talking about value like freedom of speech, attack Christmas markets or toss young children in front of trains like in Frankfurt, Germany? I don't buy victimization, because these are the incidents which leavea scare in everyone's hearts.

As said I know many goodhearted people from other countries and I know also a lot of bad Austrians. We have to look at each case individually and determine who's the good guy and who's not. I am NOT defending any Austrian idiot against a nice foreigner. However, the matter of the fact is Austrians didn't attack a Christmarket for example.

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I live in a very multi-cultural city and I assure you that if you have an education system that's open to it, and a willingness on the part of the host country/region/city to embrace the cultural differences then it is positive for everyone.

I certainly don't know how things are in your city, but I can tell you the situation in Vienna is bad despite a Social Democratic-Green city government who's completely open to immigrants.

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People do not come to a country wanting to hate it, or wanting to hate the people in it. But they end up hating it and them, because of people with views like yours, and politicians who either share those views or foster that hate for votes. You really, frankly, should be ashamed of yourself.

I am not hating any goodhearted people, regardless their country of origin or political ideology. So yeah, I have no reason to be ashamed of my positions because I believe everyone would be better off under a government run by the right policies.

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And if you think that you can say you're 'more likely to express the same level of compassion ... even to non-human subjects like animals, than people on the other side of the political spectrum', when you ultimately don't care what a politician's animal rights position is then you're absolutely deluded.

Well, as said animal rights cannot be my only issue to decide who I support. Would you support a right-winger just because he embraces animal rights? 

[Anthony_270 976]

4 hours ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

I think it's unhealthy

Meat (and seafood) is one of the most healthy foods you can eat. It is nutrient dense and has minimal impact on blood sugar (-> obesity, diabetes). (I am not talking about highly processed meat products here - I'm talking about steak, salmon fillets, and so on.)

[Anthony_270 976]

4 hours ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

I think people should try to avoid eating other species

Why?

You would perhaps be surprised by the number of other species that have to be killed to grow vegetables.

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

8 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

(I am not talking about highly processed meat products here - I'm talking about steak, salmon fillets, and so on.)

That's good you are singeling them out. Because the highly processed products are what mostly is offered in supermarkets.

7 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Why?

You would perhaps be surprised by the number of other species that have to be killed to grow vegetables.

I find it unethical and somewhat yucky to eat meat which is in fact a dead animal. I can do it of course without having to vomit but I should stop thinking when eating meat (very rarely). 

[Anthony_270 976]

1 minute ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

That's good you are singeling them out. Because the highly processed products are what mostly is offered in supermarkets.

Really? Here the supermarkets have meat sections filled with minimally processed meats - steaks, fillets, roasts, and so on.

2 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

I find it unethical and somewhat yucky to eat meat which is in fact a dead animal. I can do it of course without having to vomit but I should stop thinking when eating meat (very rarely).

I on the other hand find a perfectly seared medium-rare steak one of the best things to eat.  Or pulled pork with melted cheese, salsa and yogurt. 

But why do you find it unethical?

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

7 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Really? Here the supermarkets have meat sections filled with minimally processed meats - steaks, fillets, roasts, and so on.

I on the other hand find a perfectly seared medium-rare steak one of the best things to eat.  Or pulled pork with melted cheese, salsa and yogurt. 

But why do you find it unethical?

Sure if done well, it can be tasty, but it remains a dead animal lol

Well, ''Should we raise and kill animals just for consumption?'' is the broader question here. Of course that creates a living for many people so no changes are to be encouraged anytime soon, but I still think it's problematic when put into perspective.

[Anthony_270 976]

1 minute ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

it remains a dead animal lol

Yes, it happens from time to time in the animal kingdom. 

2 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

I still think it's problematic when put into perspective.

Why?

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

2 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Yes, it happens from time to time in the animal kingdom. 

I am not that eager to have a dead animal on my plate  

3 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Why?

Well, not much to add here. As I said, can it be justified to raise and kill animals (oftentimes under bad conditions) just for consumption? That's an issue which could be debated in a reasonable way. Of course we don't need anymore publicity seekers marching up and down exploiting the issue itself for attention.

[CPE 97]

This thread highlights something that I have been thinking about for a while now : I think that rural and urban communities need separate governments.

The hunting issue is a good example of this.  You would probably be ran out of town if you ever tried to ban hunting in the community that I grew up in, but I have lived in cities where I don't think I have a met a single person that hunts.  Why should someone living in a city have a say in restricting the freedom of someone else living a completely different kind of lifestyle?  Just a rhetorical thought, not targeted at anything in this thread in particular.

Personally, I think that hunting is a quality past time.  A great way for father and son to bond, it is a family tradition in many parts of the world.  It is something that rewards patience, dedication, and teaches good marksmanship.  A good way to escape city life every now and then.  Hunting for food is something that will never stop, it is quite literally one of the oldest "jobs" (if you will) that humanity knows.  I am not opposed to hunting for sport either, but I believe that there should be measures taken to reduce the chance of cruelty to animals occurring.

[Anthony_270 976]

5 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

As I said, can it be justified to raise and kill animals (oftentimes under bad conditions) just for consumption?

Yes, because animals are near-optimal human nutrition. We are designed to eat them. Do you think animals won't die if we don't eat them?

The way most animals are killed (and there are of course exceptions) is relatively humane. How do you think animals die in nature?

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

Just now, admin_270 said:

Do you think animals won't die if we don't eat them?

That's not the point I am making. The problem isn't the killing itself. I am not saying a vegetarian helps in any way the animals, because they will be killed obviously anyway. The problem is first and foremost that most animals wouldn't even be bred if people would not want to eat them. Secondly it's basically eating a corpse, which is not what most people would want to do. 

5 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Yes, because animals are near-optimal human nutrition.

I don't know who told you that. There are professional sports people who need a lot of energy, advocating for vegetarianism (which I do not even do). 

7 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

The way most animals are killed (and there are of course exceptions) is relatively humane. How do you think animals die in nature?

I doubt that. The conditions for animals and workers in meat plants have been a constant issue in politics (in Europe). Several meat plants in Germany had insane hygienic conditions which lead to enormous Covid spikes.

[Anthony_270 976]

1 minute ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Secondly it's basically eating a corpse, which is not what most people would want to do

What do you mean? People on average seem to like meat and seafood quite a bit. Do you think they're unaware they're eating animals?

2 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

I don't know who told you that.

Don't take my word for it. Try eating a meat-and-seafood-heavy diet for a month and see how you feel. Easy experiment to make.  If you want anecdotes, look at how people report feeling after starting a meat-heavy (or even meat-only!) diet (look up carnivore diet, paleo diet, primal diet, or even keto diet, although that's a bit different). Energy way up, all sorts of issues with systemic inflammation way down.

But the basic context is evolution. It's clear humans have been eating meat far longer than they have been engaging in agriculture. A big clue that agricultural products aren't optimal to eat in large quantities is that doing so causes teeth to rot (cavities). In a natural context, if your teeth started to rot you would be in big trouble. Meat and seafood do not cause your teeth to rot in any quantities.

7 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Several meat plants in Germany had insane hygienic conditions

I think you're talking about working conditions for people here, not the animals being processed.

But sure, sometimes animals have inhumane conditions being raised or killed. If you could buy meat where the animals were treated humanely in both cases, would you still have ethical objections?

[Reagan04 658]

Sorry it took me so long to do this, but for what it’s worth I think the last question is pretty much just bunk. 

[Conservative Elector 2 333]

13 hours ago, admin_270 said:

What do you mean? People on average seem to like meat and seafood quite a bit. Do you think they're unaware they're eating animals?

I don't see much difference between consuming a human body and an animal corpse. Both is dead meat, and while the first is regarded disgusting the later is not. I think people don't see it that way for whatever reason.

[Anthony_270 976]

9 hours ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

I don't see much difference between consuming a human body and an animal corpse. Both is dead meat, and while the first is regarded disgusting the later is not. I think people don't see it that way for whatever reason.

Seems to me there's a significant moral difference between humans and other animals, which applies to this.