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State of the Race: 33 Days Left


33 Day Poll  

26 members have voted

  1. 1. See the Data in the First Post: Who do you think wins if the election were today?

  2. 2. Did you watch the debate?

    • Yes, most or all of it
    • Yes, but only highlights or part of it.
    • No
  3. 3. If you had to pick one, who do you think won the debate?

    • I did not watch the debate or only saw parts of the debate, so I can't accurately say.
    • I watched all or most of the debate and I think Biden won.
    • I watched all or most of the debate and I think Trump won.
  4. 4. Did it bother you that Trump backed out of condemning white supremacists during the debate?

  5. 5. Did it bother you that while Biden said he would accept the election results and to calm his followers if he loses, Trump would not commit to this, encouraged the "Proud Boys" to "stand back and stand by," and would only accept the result via the Supreme Court?



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Pretty much my train of thought. No one winning means Biden wins since Trump needs to get some serious movement in the polls to have a real chance.

@vcczar The threat from white-supremacy groups are over-hyped by the media. The idea that there are highly organized white-supremacy groups is absurd. White Supremacy groups consist of a bunch of idio

I think the people who didn't watch the debate won.

Just now, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Does that make any difference at all? The statement is not her best obviously and I am inclined to believe Biden will follow her advice. Anyway, I'd prefer people like the Clintons or the Obamas to take a leaf out of Bush's book. He and Laura are staying more or less quiet instead of being very vocal.

Yeah it does, because Biden doesn't have to listen to a lick of what Clinton has to say. So you're believing what she says, rather than what came from his own mouth during the debate? That shows a bit of implicit bias, that you think that he would blindly listen to HRC than what he himself said at the debate that he would accept the results of the election. 

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4 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

I didn't realize that human lives didn't count as damage as what vcczar said about 329 deaths due to the far-right and 0 attributed to Antifa. 

At least 1 on Antifa's record would be more correct actually. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/us/portland-shooting-victim-aaron-j-danielson/index.html

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1 minute ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

At least 1 on Antifa's record would be more correct actually. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/us/portland-shooting-victim-aaron-j-danielson/index.html

What about the 329, then? Do they matter at all? Obviously any death is horrible and should be mourned. 

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2 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

Yeah it does, because Biden doesn't have to listen to a lick of what Clinton has to say. So you're believing what she says, rather than what came from his own mouth during the debate? That shows a bit of implicit bias, that you think that he would blindly listen to HRC than what he himself said at the debate that he would accept the results of the election. 

Yes, I do and yes I am biased but most of us are. Still, HRC's statement shows that the sentiment in the Biden camp isn't much different to the one in the Trump campaign. 

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Just now, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Yes, I do and yes I am biased but most of us are. Still, HRC's statement shows that the sentiment in the Biden camp isn't much different to the one in the Trump campaign. 

That is just incorrect. Biden said himself something completely different, so its obviously different.

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1 minute ago, Hestia11 said:

What about the 329, then? Do they matter at all? Obviously any death is horrible and should be mourned. 

I agree on that. Certainly I am not in favor of any violence.

I also googled the number, because I never saw reports on that. It seems to be the sum since 1994. I think if we had data on Antifa in this period it would still be more than 1, unfortunately.

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1 minute ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

I agree on that. Certainly I am not in favor of any violence.

I also googled the number, because I never saw reports on that. It seems to be the sum since 1994. I think if we had data on Antifa in this period it would still be more than 1, unfortunately.

How long has antifa even been an idea? I wasnt aware of them until like 2017.

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2 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

How long has antifa even been an idea? I wasnt aware of them until like 2017.

I don't know when they began operating in the US. I remember seeing Antifa graffiti in Austria at least a decade ago.

800px-Antifa_2008_K%C3%B6ln.jpg

That picture of an Antifa supporter was taken in Germany 2008. Maybe the whole movement was exported from Europe to the US afterwards. 

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24 minutes ago, BeetleJuice said:

In the case of a contested election, the Supreme Court should of course have the final say. Would you rather see an outcome of a contested election be decided on the streets by far left and far right activist? 

No. I'm okay with it going to the court if there is a legitimate reason for concern or if the election is close. The thing is Trump is already contesting the election and seems to think the court should decide the election even if he loses to Biden 188-350. Do you think it should go to the court in a landslide or convincing victory?

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1 hour ago, vcczar said:

No. I'm okay with it going to the court if there is a legitimate reason for concern or if the election is close. The thing is Trump is already contesting the election and seems to think the court should decide the election even if he loses to Biden 188-350. Do you think it should go to the court in a landslide or convincing victory?

What would matter to me, as you say, would be the specific reasons for contesting this or that. Are they legitimate reasons to bring to the courts? The margin doesn't really matter one way or the other, if the issue (or issues) affects enough regions to affect the outcome.

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2 hours ago, BeetleJuice said:

@vcczar The threat from white-supremacy groups are over-hyped by the media. The idea that there are highly organized white-supremacy groups is absurd. White Supremacy groups consist of a bunch of idiots meeting, and occasionally having a rally. Far left activism is actually causing structural damage to our institutions. I would have liked to see Trump be more forceful in  condemning white supremacy, but he was right in immediately pivoting to far-left extremism.  

The popular joke about the Klan today is that at any given meeting there are going to be about three people present, one an ATF agent, one a DHS agent, and one an FBI agent, all there to keep tabs on each other lol.

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2 hours ago, Hestia11 said:

How long has antifa even been an idea? I wasnt aware of them until like 2017.

ANTIFA is not an idea or theory like so many people like to suggest today.  ANTIFA was founded as the militant arm of the KPD (Communist Party of Germany) during the interwar period.  Between the Freikorps, Communists, Nazis, etc., street violence was pretty much the norm during the worst years of the Weimar Republic, so it was not "unusual" (if you will) for the era.  They are active in Europe as far as I am aware, I know more so in Germany and Austria particularly, not sure about the rest of Western Europe.

As an aside, I feel it necessary to declare that Trump is neither a fascist or a dictator to the American readers here.  When I hear/read comments such as those, the person saying/writing them automatically loses any credibility to say they have a well informed opinion in my sight.  The only true fascist nation in existence right now is China.  To break the ideology down in very simple terms, fascism is basically state controlled capitalism/corporatism + totalitarian government control + strong sense of national identity.  That, in a nutshell, is all fascism really is.  As much as people may not like the man (which is fine, the 1st amendment exists in the United States), Trump is not a dictator either.  None of us would be able to criticize him on this forum right now if he truly were.  Are you going to, in all seriousness, compare the man to someone such as Castro, Papa Doc, or Somoza?  I really cannot take anyone seriously who thinks this way, it is nothing more than hysterics to put it frankly.  Not liking the man is one thing, but inventing fantasies is another.

No one who has lived in the US/Canada/Western Europe all of their life has any clue what true dictator or despot is.  This is my biggest criticism of the US to be honest, it so insulated from the rest of the world that the citizens who never leave don't have the slightest clue of how good they have it.  Compare the kind of censorship and repression found over in Xi's China, and ask yourself whether Trump is truly a dictator or not.

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7 minutes ago, CPE said:

As an aside, I feel it necessary to declare that Trump is neither a fascist or a dictator to the American readers here.  When I hear/read comments such as those, the person saying/writing them automatically loses any credibility to say they have a well informed opinion in my sight.  The only true fascist nation in existence right now is China.  To break the ideology down in very simple terms, fascism is basically state controlled capitalism/corporatism + totalitarian government control + strong sense of national identity.  That, in a nutshell, is all fascism really is.  As much as people may not like the man (which is fine, the 1st amendment exists in the United States), Trump is not a dictator either.  None of us would be able to criticize him on this forum right now if he truly were.  Are you going to, in all seriousness, compare the man to someone such as Castro, Papa Doc, or Somoza?  I really cannot take anyone seriously who thinks this way, it is nothing more than hysterics to put it frankly.  Not liking the man is one thing, but inventing fantasies is another.

 

I don't feel like anyone, outside of maybe Wiw thinks that Trump is a dictator, so it's just a tad strange to hear you give that big of a rant to it. It is concerning, however, that he is openly talking about not accepting the result of the election, which is an authoritarian move.

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8 minutes ago, CPE said:

ANTIFA is not an idea or theory like so many people like to suggest today.  ANTIFA was founded as the militant arm of the KPD (Communist Party of Germany) during the interwar period.  Between the Freikorps, Communists, Nazis, etc., street violence was pretty much the norm during the worst years of the Weimar Republic, so it was not "unusual" (if you will) for the era.  They are active in Europe as far as I am aware, I know more so in Germany and Austria particularly, not sure about the rest of Western Europe.

As an aside, I feel it necessary to declare that Trump is neither a fascist or a dictator to the American readers here.  When I hear/read comments such as those, the person saying/writing them automatically loses any credibility to say they have a well informed opinion in my sight.  The only true fascist nation in existence right now is China.  To break the ideology down in very simple terms, fascism is basically state controlled capitalism/corporatism + totalitarian government control + strong sense of national identity.  That, in a nutshell, is all fascism really is.  As much as people may not like the man (which is fine, the 1st amendment exists in the United States), Trump is not a dictator either.  None of us would be able to criticize him on this forum right now if he truly were.  Are you going to, in all seriousness, compare the man to someone such as Castro, Papa Doc, or Somoza?  I really cannot take anyone seriously who thinks this way, it is nothing more than hysterics to put it frankly.  Not liking the man is one thing, but inventing fantasies is another.

No one who has lived in the US/Canada/Western Europe all of their life has any clue what true dictator or despot is.  This is my biggest criticism of the US to be honest, it so insulated from the rest of the world that the citizens who never leave don't have the slightest clue of how good they have it.  Compare the kind of censorship and repression found over in Xi's China, and ask yourself whether Trump is truly a dictator or not.

But he says that CNN is fake news! Clearly a dictator!

Trump is hemmed in by the House, even by the Republican controlled Senate, by the courts at multiple levels, has a largely hostile media, and so on. It's just standard rhetorical hyperbole by people who don't like him and his policies.

The more realistic criticism is that Trump has 'authoritarian impulses' - vague enough to be justifiable in certain ways.

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18 minutes ago, CPE said:

ANTIFA is not an idea or theory like so many people like to suggest today.  ANTIFA was founded as the militant arm of the KPD (Communist Party of Germany) during the interwar period.  Between the Freikorps, Communists, Nazis, etc., street violence was pretty much the norm during the worst years of the Weimar Republic, so it was not "unusual" (if you will) for the era.  They are active in Europe as far as I am aware, I know more so in Germany and Austria particularly, not sure about the rest of Western Europe.

 

That may be the case in Europe. However, here in the US, the FBI director said himself (A Trump appointee, mind you) that it is more of an ideology than an organization. https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-race-and-ethnicity-archive-bdd3b6078e9efadcfcd0be4b65f2362e There is little evidence of structure, a clear power standing, or anything else that would make it a true organization.

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34 minutes ago, CPE said:

The only true fascist nation in existence right now is China.  To break the ideology down in very simple terms, fascism is basically state controlled capitalism/corporatism + totalitarian government control + strong sense of national identity.  That, in a nutshell, is all fascism really is.

No, that's a communist nation, isn't it?

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16 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

I don't feel like anyone, outside of maybe Wiw thinks that Trump is a dictator, so it's just a tad strange to hear you give that big of a rant to it. It is concerning, however, that he is openly talking about not accepting the result of the election, which is an authoritarian move.

It wasn't really intended to be a rant, I naturally write kind of windy I guess.  I don't know if it was here, but this is the second time I heard something of the sort suggested today.  It just seems so silly and absurd that it surprises me that people actually believe it, I just don't understand it.  You can not like the man, but to call him a dictator is just borderline absurd.  He hasn't even made any moves similar to what Putin has made in Russia in order to consolidate and extend power.  If he is a dictator, he is surely doing a very poor job of being one lol.

 

8 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

That may be the case in Europe. However, here in the US, the FBI director said himself (A Trump appointee, mind you) that it is more of an ideology than an organization. https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-race-and-ethnicity-archive-bdd3b6078e9efadcfcd0be4b65f2362e There is little evidence of structure, a clear power standing, or anything else that would make it a true organization.

Just because there may not be common knowledge of their operations does not mean they do not exist.  Believe it or not, there are militias that operate within the United States, some in the public eye, some out, as well.  There is a 0% chance that the US government will ever show all of the intel that they have on record, so who knows for certain all of what is going on at any given time.  If Trump does follow through with designating them as a terrorist organization, we should see some evidence come out sooner or later as to whether they are operating on US soil or not.

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1 minute ago, CPE said:

Just because there may not be common knowledge of their operations does not mean they do not exist.  Believe it or not, there are militias that operate within the United States, some in the public eye, some out, as well.  There is a 0% chance that the US government will ever show all of the intel that they have on record, so who knows for certain all of what is going on at any given time.  If Trump does follow through with designating them as a terrorist organization, we should see some evidence come out sooner or later as to whether they are operating on US soil or not.

Pretty sure that the FBI director would know about their operations more than the President does. I'm sure if he thought they were as big of a threat as they're made out to be, he'd let it be known. 

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1 minute ago, Wiw said:

No, that's a communist nation, isn't it?

No, not at all.  Their government is definitely totalitarian in nature with regards to the amount of control that they exert over their citizens lives, but economically, China is the furthest thing from communist.  It is basically unrestricted capitalism, as long as you are in the good graces of the state.  Why do you think so many US companies have their manufacturing bases located over there, easy to take advantage of cheap slave labour for pennies on the dollar of what you would pay to manufacture in the US.

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6 minutes ago, CPE said:

No, not at all.  Their government is definitely totalitarian in nature with regards to the amount of control that they exert over their citizens lives, but economically, China is the furthest thing from communist.  It is basically unrestricted capitalism, as long as you are in the good graces of the state.  Why do you think so many US companies have their manufacturing bases located over there, easy to take advantage of cheap slave labour for pennies on the dollar of what you would pay to manufacture in the US.

Politically, in it's governing structure, it clings to Communistic ideals, but economically has a "free-market-with-strong-government-oversight-only-invoked-as-needed,"  system. It's a wonky hybrid that would have both Karl Marx and Adam Smith rolling in their graves.

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13 minutes ago, Patine said:

Politically, in it's governing structure, it clings to Communistic ideals, but economically has a "free-market-with-strong-government-oversight-only-invoked-as-needed,"  system. It's a wonky hybrid that would have both Karl Marx and Adam Smith rolling in their graves.

I prefer to call them "communist" ideals if you will lol.  Make no mistake, the Chinese government truly believes that Han Chinese are the superior race (in that area at least), hence their attempts to get rid of the Tibetans, Uygurs, etc., so that component is certainly there as well.  When comparing to Nazi Germany, it is not that different economically as well.  Volkswagen was a crucial component of Nazi rearmament as well.  Economically, it really is a zombified model between the worst of communism and capitalism (which is very similar to the Nazi's as well)

 

27 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

Pretty sure that the FBI director would know about their operations more than the President does. I'm sure if he thought they were as big of a threat as they're made out to be, he'd let it be known. 

Personally, I don't believe something just because a government official says it (too much experience with banana republic governments has shown me not too lol).  It is important to look at things with your own eyes/brain and try to see if the government is telling the truth about something.  I think there are some underground radical left-wing organizations operating in the States for certain, I have seen individuals posing with the ANTIFA flag in recent photos.  How organized are they, who knows for sure.  The big wigs know a whole lot more than we do.

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8 minutes ago, CPE said:

Personally, I don't believe something just because a government official says it (too much experience with banana republic governments has shown me not too lol).  It is important to look at things with your own eyes/brain and try to see if the government is telling the truth about something.  I think there are some underground radical left-wing organizations operating in the States for certain, I have seen individuals posing with the ANTIFA flag in recent photos.  How organized are they, who knows for sure.  The big wigs know a whole lot more than we do.

So you're saying that we should wait for a government official (the President) to designate them as a terrorist organization so we'll find out more, but also not to trust a government official (the FBI head) about the designation. You've seen individuals posting this, but is it actually an organization or people trying to say that they're "cool" and "edgy" because they're posting with ANTIFA flags? I tend to think the latter. 

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