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Is Kenosha Floyd redux?


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1 hour ago, Actinguy said:

I'll bet I'd be burning some shit to the ground too.

Then you'd be wrong to do it. It doesn't matter if there's a legitimate grievance, violence isn't the answer. Hurting other people, because some people have been hurt, isn't the answer.

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It turns out George Floyd had lethal levels of fentanyl in his system, and might have died of that. https://alphanewsmn.com/george-floyd-lethal-fentanyl-autopsy/ At the time, many people, in

The other issue with all of these "protests" are the complete disregard for other peoples property. My father who owns a company near minneapolis his company is comepletely destroyed. Where is my just

This is actually not true, They are far more likely to be overpoliced and 7x more likely to be wrongfully convicted, however. the whole justice system is skewed against black people and to say ot

Just now, admin_270 said:

Then you'd be wrong to do it. It doesn't matter if there's a legitimate grievance, violence isn't the answer. Hurting other people, because some people have been hurt, isn't the answer.

Wait, do you have the answer?  Please share it!  We've been waiting hundreds of years for it, thank god you're finally here!

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1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

No, I don't have the answer. Perhaps read about the leaders through history who eschewed violence and got significant results.

Sure, and while I'm doing that you can take the homework assignment of researching those who did utilize violence and achieved results too.

Obviously I am not promoting violence.  I am completely understanding of where the violence comes from, and recognizing that it will never stop unless we stop causing it.

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10 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Wait, do you have the answer?  Please share it!  We've been waiting hundreds of years for it, thank god you're finally here!

General strike! Shutdown the nation until they back down! Like in the Fall of the Warsaw Pact in the '1990's. But I suspect, if it could be organized (that's the hard part!), it would be MORE effective in the U.S., not less, like many claim - because the U.S. is a free-market nation where a powerful, corrupt plutocratic oligarchy has far more direct influence on Government than the Constituent voters. Almost all all-strike actions in the U.S. from the 1960's onward have not been to prevent them outright, but to kill and hurt their organization and unity, to prevent such an event that would REALLY hurt the U.S. Government. But, indeed, organization and unity for such a thing have ALWAYS been the difficulty in the U.S. here (and many other endeavours to call various governments to any sort of accountance).

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3 minutes ago, Patine said:

General strike! Shutdown the nation until they back down! Like in the Warsaw Pact. But I suspect, if it could be organized (that's the hard part!), it would be MORE effective in the U.S., not less, like many claim - because the U.S. is a free-market nation where a powerful, corrupt plutocratic oligarchy has far more direct influence on Government than the Constituent voters. Almost all all-strike actions in the U.S. from the 1960's onward have not been to prevent them outright, but to kill and hurt their organization and unity, to prevent such an event that would REALLY hurt the U.S. Government. But, indeed, organization and unity for such a thing have ALWAYS been the difficulty in the U.S. here (and many other endeavours to call various governments to any sort of accountance).

That's a very interesting proposal.  The most obvious problem is that it would hurt the already poor and downtrodden (who already don't have enough money, and now would not be paid) much more than it would hurt the wealthy in control.

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2 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Good.

I guess I care about property about as much as you care about unarmed people being murdered by police officers.

You can interpret that in any way that you like, depending on the level to which you care about unarmed people being murdered by police officers.

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3 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

I guess I care about property about as much as you care about unarmed people being murdered by police officers.

I guess you care about property very much, and know someone personally whose house was destroyed by rioters, then.

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Just now, Actinguy said:

I guess I care about property about as much as you care about unarmed people being murdered by police officers.

You can interpret that in any way that you like, depending on the level to which you care about unarmed people being murdered by police officers.

Putting aside admin for a minute here - there are those on the left as well that don't want to see looting. So your first sentence would run contrary to any Democratic-leaners that are uncomfortable with this as well. Some of these shops are immigrant owned, people that the Democrats want to protect as well. Does that mean that I don't want to see change? Hell no. But arguing that any sort of violence is okay will let the Republicans take hold of that argument and say it represents all of us. No one has the "answer". There isn't one, that's a false argument. If there is, it's by way of hundreds and thousands of little changes that every person needs to make. The government is only a small piece of that puzzle. 

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2 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

Putting aside admin for a minute here - there are those on the left as well that don't want to see looting. So your first sentence would run contrary to any Democratic-leaners that are uncomfortable with this as well. Some of these shops are immigrant owned, people that the Democrats want to protect as well. Does that mean that I don't want to see change? Hell no. But arguing that any sort of violence is okay will let the Republicans take hold of that argument and say it represents all of us. No one has the "answer". There isn't one, that's a false argument. If there is, it's by way of hundreds and thousands of little changes that every person needs to make. The government is only a small piece of that puzzle. 

I very clearly said I wasn't advocating for violence.  I was calling for LESS violence, in the form of murders, so that the other violence, in the form of property destruction, would end.

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Just now, Actinguy said:

I very clearly said I wasn't advocating for violence.  I was calling for LESS violence, in the form of murders, so that the other violence, in the form of property destruction, would end.

Yes, but other answers ran directly contrary to that. Everyone wants to see less murders (or at least sane people do). By saying that one inevitably leads to another is a false choice. It isn't inevitable that property destruction has to happen. But neither should these murders, either. It's hard, but excusing looting as a sort of "necessary evil" isn't the right answer. My situation is probably much different than that of other people, rural police officers and those that have shaped my opinions of my local police are very different than a black person's experiences in a city. The best I can do is to ask for change from our leaders and change the way that I personally go about my life. Everyone should try to do the same. 

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5 hours ago, admin_270 said:

Because you're harming other people?

Then maybe politicians should stop failing people? This isn't an issue with people. Throughout history, people have become frustrated with the system they live under and have fought it with violence, innocents are always in the cross-fire. The problem doesn't lie in the rioting, the problem lies in the fact that rioting is actually resolving things that electoralism ISN'T. If rioting keeps fixing things, why would people stop? They've voted Democrat since the 1960s, when has qualified immunity and killings of innocent black people stopped? Qualified immunity finally stopped in a handful of states this year and that is a response to these riots. People who support rioting are being proven right, whilst people who aren't are being told "yeah but somethings coming out of it?"

The USA needs a new system horribly. I really wish the USSR didn't rise and syndicalism did it's job.

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2 hours ago, Actinguy said:

Nobody cares about peaceful protests.  "Occupy Wall Street" was a mostly peaceful protest.  It was also a joke.  What did they accomplish?  

It is easy for me to sit here, absolutely confident that my child will always be safe in the presence of a police officer, and judge.

But if I had reason to believe that wasn't the case?  If people who were a lot like my own child kept getting murdered for no reason by the people who had sworn to protect them?  And if I had reason to believe that people didn't even CARE that my child was not safe?  And it kept happening like that?  For decades?

I'll bet I'd be burning some shit to the ground too.

Exactly! There are people alive right now that had their house burnt down and family members hung just for being black, they thought it would all change with the Civil Rights Act. It's been 60 years since then and black people are still being killed for the most tame crimes. I mean look at Breonna Taylor, a good person, did nothing wrong and she was literally extrajudicially killed and the AG is trying his best to ignore it. Nothing has changed!

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1 minute ago, wolves said:

Then maybe politicians should stop failing people? This isn't an issue with people. Throughout history, people have become frustrated with the system they live under and have fought it with violence, innocents are always in the cross-fire. The problem doesn't lie in the rioting, the problem lies in the fact that rioting is actually resolving things that electoralism ISN'T. If rioting keeps fixing things, why would people stop? They've voted Democrat since the 1960s, when has qualified immunity and killings of innocent black people stopped?

Does the Democratic Party of 2020 in any way look like the Democratic Party of 1960? No. Are there problems? Of course there are. They need to be fixed and addressed as best as we can do. There needs to be fundamental change in every facet of life, including governance. Is rioting solving things - which is the crux of your argument? Certainly not at a national scale. Maybe at a few municipalities and cities, perhaps a state or two, but will this in any way change the Republican Party's position? Not at all. You're lying to yourself if you believe that. 

The hope lies in Democrats, as it always has. I doubt rioting changed many Democrats' opinions that they didn't already have because of the massive protests. Democrats do believe in people power, moreso than Republicans on this. They react quickly when they see people lining up behind something (sometimes too quickly). They like to jump the gun and get on board. Republicans like to wait it out and see if the waters settle - and they had hoped that it would. It almost did after George Floyd and the media cycle moved on, but this has thrown another bomb into the water that has made sure that they can't skate by this time. 

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1 minute ago, Hestia11 said:

Does the Democratic Party of 2020 in any way look like the Democratic Party of 1960? No. Are there problems? Of course there are. They need to be fixed and addressed as best as we can do. There needs to be fundamental change in every facet of life, including governance. Is rioting solving things - which is the crux of your argument? Certainly not at a national scale. Maybe at a few municipalities and cities, perhaps a state or two, but will this in any way change the Republican Party's position? Not at all. You're lying to yourself if you believe that. 

The hope lies in Democrats, as it always has. I doubt rioting changed many Democrats' opinions that they didn't already have because of the massive protests. Democrats do believe in people power, moreso than Republicans on this. They react quickly when they see people lining up behind something (sometimes too quickly). They like to jump the gun and get on board. Republicans like to wait it out and see if the waters settle - and they had hoped that it would. It almost did after George Floyd and the media cycle moved on, but this has thrown another bomb into the water that has made sure that they can't skate by this time. 

I do not care about the Republican party's position. Ask Pelosi four years ago what she thought of ending qualified immunity, ask her now. This movement did something. 

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Just now, wolves said:

I do not care about the Republican party's position. Ask Pelosi four years ago what she thought of ending qualified immunity, ask her now. This movement did something. 

The movement, yes. Did I ever say that the movement did nothing? You claimed the rioting did something. Is it the rioting or the fact that people are truly behind this movement more than ever? I believe the latter completely. 

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18 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Do you think things on the whole are better or worse for black Americans than 60 years ago?

Lot of variables to that. You need to really think about what has changed.

60 years ago, African-Americans had hope for once in their existence since the ending of slavery that they were going to be on the up. Affirmative action was introduced and they were finally allowed in good schools cause of desegregation PLUS whenever crimes such as lynching occurred in Southern states such as Georgia, it was a crime that was forced to be taken seriously or else the GBI would be involved (or the state's equivalent) and that would be really bad for said-department. 

Look where they are now though. Where that hope ended up at. Black people still live in the same communities that were made popular by Jim Crow and in a lot of states like Illinois and California, were forced into communities due to gentrification. They don't get access to good schooling, they are such huge users of crack-cocaine and other stimulants that were literally PUSHED onto their communities by the government to arrest them, we have more black people in prison than any country has prisoners, we have systematic racism and institutional racism (white people and black people both get caught with marijuana at the exact same rate, white people more actually, guess who gets arrested for it more) and on top of all that, I can safely say to you that black people are scared when they're around police officers. A lot has changed but the right foot is walking forwards, the left back.

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4 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Violence sometimes advances the goals of a movement, sometimes it sets it back - sometimes it irrevocably sets it back.

Either way, it's not the right thing to do.

Am not arguing its the right thing to do, am arguing that it is achieving goals.

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7 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

The movement, yes. Did I ever say that the movement did nothing? You claimed the rioting did something. Is it the rioting or the fact that people are truly behind this movement more than ever? I believe the latter completely. 

Why not both? Lmao. I see where you are coming from. I definitely think the rioting is causing elected officials and the Democratic party to swiftly act as well as change its positions on a lot of issues important to black people and leftists that have been ignored for so long in favor of reaching to the right. 

I also do believe the Democratic Party is the hope in all this in terms of effective reform, yes, as well as effective defunding and demilitarization of the police. I just think it's very obvious to everyone that protesting marching for Philando Castile, Tamir Rice and Walter Scott did nothing. It did literally nothing, these people died in vain. Rioting over Rodney King and Michael Brown actually *achieved* things. This is the problem we are facing, violence *achieves* things while it should not.

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