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Conservative Party of Canada Leadership Race


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12 minutes ago, CPE said:

Arianism

Yes, Arius' views were declared heresy. But this wasn't until Christianity had been around for 300 years! This is longer than my country has existed.

What's clear is that many people held views similar to Arius' around this time. This is why there was pressure to resolve the issue - if it had been a marginal view, no one would have cared much. I think the best evidence suggests multiple views coexisting in the very early Church. We really don't know when trinitarianism started to become a major view.

17 minutes ago, CPE said:

if it was so that a non-Trinitarian doctrine was taught and accepted during the early Church, they would be valid

So then my question is, why? What exactly would change on a metaphysical level that would make them invalid now? Is it just that a consensus now exists in the Catholic Church? If so, why does this change the nature of baptism?

16 minutes ago, CPE said:

I feel confident to say that St. Peter understood the doctrine of the Trinity, all evidence points to it being a teaching of the early Church apostles

Care to point to the evidence for this?

19 minutes ago, CPE said:

it is impossible to deny the Trinitarian doctrine and claim to be a Christian in our era

Many do. I myself am ambivalent about trinitarianism, considering it orthogonal to more important issues. Having gone painfully through, for example, the Gospel of John, all the evidence is ambiguous, IMO. My guess is very early Christians at least tended to consider Jesus divine but not God - the Son of God, as opposed to God. Only later did the blasphemous view (to Judaism) that Jesus was God develop. 

Anyway, certainly well-informed people can disagree on this.

See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarianism_in_the_Church_Fathers

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Good day everyone, For those of us who are Canadian/live in Canada/follow Canadian politics, it looks like the CPC leadership race is heating up in the waning moments. https://ipolitics.ca/2

I'll almost certainly still vote for Singh regardless of who wins this leadership race. The only Federal right-of-centre party leader in an election I ever even CONSIDERED voting for as long as I coul

Agreed with the admin. Singh was relatively likeable, even if you didn't like his policies. He saved the NDP from perhaps losing the "third party" status to the Greens. He could maybe peel off more Li

O Tool and Mackay are the only potential rulers

Sloan is too much conservative to have a shot, Trudeau would make gains with him

Lewis is sometimes contradictory to me (I think she is a green conservative unlike Sloan who is a capitalist conservative) but the most worrying to me is her french which is just inexistent.

I know I can do some mistakes in english but at least I can write understandable messages and discuss in english very fluently, her performance at the francophone debate was just incredible, she READ her NOTES.

Actually a Quebecker from Rivières des Milles Illes asked her a question about energy in french and she replied by telling she would continue to do efforts in french and was really improving it.

I am much more tender regarding O Tool and Mackay who have a quite good french. Sloan is still learning but at least he understood questions he got and tried to reply accordingly.

This thing said : The polls are not looking good for any of them. Trudeau seems in a good momentum despite We Charity.

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7 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

In English, this phrase means it was good. 😉

Indeed my bad, it can go both ways in french 😛 

And also my problem to be someone very nice for finding qualificatives

Her french which is just inexistent, she barely read her notes during the whole francophone debate

I am not a kind of a nazi corrector for language, I am actually really tolerant but if she would ever win I do hope she improves her french or the conservative MPs in Quebec have to fear about losing their seats (excepted maybe in Beauce)

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2 hours ago, admin_270 said:

Yes, Arius' views were declared heresy. But this wasn't until Christianity had been around for 300 years! This is longer than my country has existed.

What's clear is that many people held views similar to Arius' around this time. This is why there was pressure to resolve the issue - if it had been a marginal view, no one would have cared much. I think the best evidence suggests multiple views coexisting in the very early Church. We really don't know when trinitarianism started to become a major view.

So then my question is, why? What exactly would change on a metaphysical level that would make them invalid now? Is it just that a consensus now exists in the Catholic Church? If so, why does this change the nature of baptism?

Care to point to the evidence for this?

Many do. I myself am ambivalent about trinitarianism, considering it orthogonal to more important issues. Having gone painfully through, for example, the Gospel of John, all the evidence is ambiguous, IMO. My guess is very early Christians at least tended to consider Jesus divine but not God - the Son of God, as opposed to God. Only later did the blasphemous view (to Judaism) that Jesus was God develop. 

Anyway, certainly well-informed people can disagree on this.

See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarianism_in_the_Church_Fathers

A lot to write about.

While I may not know for sure whether St. Peter believed in the Trinitarian doctrine, the Didache does mention this :

"Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water; "

http://www.thedidache.com/

The Didache was written by the early Church Fathers themselves, so it does seem to suggest that there was an understanding of a Trinitarian doctrine at the time.  It amazes me how many of the hot topic social issues we face today are mentioned a document this ancient as well, makes we wonder how much have we really changed over ~2,000ish years.

According to the Catholic Church, baptisms must use the Trinitarian formula in order to be considered valid.  There are even some recent issues with unacceptable wording that some parishes must be using.  I personally was baptized in the traditional Trinitarian formula "I baptize thee...", so I was shocked to learn that there are parishes that are actually changing the wording of it.  Seems very untraditional to me, I guess it depends on what archdiocese you are in.

https://catholicphilly.com/2020/08/news/world-news/vatican-says-baptisms-that-change-wording-are-not-valid/

I recommend reading through the book of Isiah as well if you would like to delve into the topic of proving whether Jesus was actually the Messiah or not.  Believing that Jesus is the Messiah is the pinnacle belief of every Christian denomination, "No man comes to the Father, except through Me".  The death of Jesus fulfilled a variety of Old Testament prophesies.

Yes, always good to have a healthy discussion.  I am happy to see it kept civil, I usually keep religious discussions to myself given how easy it is for them to get out of hand.  This one is going/went pretty well I must say.

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1 hour ago, Edouard said:

O Tool and Mackay are the only potential rulers

Sloan is too much conservative to have a shot, Trudeau would make gains with him

Lewis is sometimes contradictory to me (I think she is a green conservative unlike Sloan who is a capitalist conservative) but the most worrying to me is her french which is just inexistent.

I know I can do some mistakes in english but at least I can write understandable messages and discuss in english very fluently, her performance at the francophone debate was just incredible, she READ her NOTES.

Actually a Quebecker from Rivières des Milles Illes asked her a question about energy in french and she replied by telling she would continue to do efforts in french and was really improving it.

I am much more tender regarding O Tool and Mackay who have a quite good french. Sloan is still learning but at least he understood questions he got and tried to reply accordingly.

This thing said : The polls are not looking good for any of them. Trudeau seems in a good momentum despite We Charity.

The polls have been interesting to follow lately.  Campaign Research has the CPC up by a little bit, but I have my doubts as to the accuracy of their results given an inherent bias towards the CPC.  Mainstreet has the Liberals up big, while Leger (which I think is probably the best overall one) has it with a slight LPC lead.  I still have my doubts that a fall election is going to take place, the NDP cannot afford it right now, but the new Tory leader will have to get up to speed very quickly in case it does.  I do believe that the new CPC leader will get a little bit of a momentum boost from all of the publicity, plus Trudeau proroguing Parliament is bad optics.  We will see I guess.

Yes, Lewis certainly needs to improve on her French, it will be a massive liability going forward if she doesn't. 

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2 hours ago, Reagan04 said:

I am a proud Leslyn Lad!

 

1 hour ago, Edouard said:

O Tool and Mackay are the only potential rulers

Sloan is too much conservative to have a shot, Trudeau would make gains with him

Lewis is sometimes contradictory to me (I think she is a green conservative unlike Sloan who is a capitalist conservative) but the most worrying to me is her french which is just inexistent.

I know I can do some mistakes in english but at least I can write understandable messages and discuss in english very fluently, her performance at the francophone debate was just incredible, she READ her NOTES.

Actually a Quebecker from Rivières des Milles Illes asked her a question about energy in french and she replied by telling she would continue to do efforts in french and was really improving it.

I am much more tender regarding O Tool and Mackay who have a quite good french. Sloan is still learning but at least he understood questions he got and tried to reply accordingly.

This thing said : The polls are not looking good for any of them. Trudeau seems in a good momentum despite We Charity.

 

1 hour ago, admin_270 said:

In English, this phrase means it was good. 😉

 

1 minute ago, CPE said:

The polls have been interesting to follow lately.  Campaign Research has the CPC up by a little bit, but I have my doubts as to the accuracy of their results given an inherent bias towards the CPC.  Mainstreet has the Liberals up big, while Leger (which I think is probably the best overall one) has it with a slight LPC lead.  I still have my doubts that a fall election is going to take place, the NDP cannot afford it right now, but the new Tory leader will have to get up to speed very quickly in case it does.  I do believe that the new CPC leader will get a little bit of a momentum boost from all of the publicity, plus Trudeau proroguing Parliament is bad optics.  We will see I guess.

Yes, Lewis certainly needs to improve on her French, it will be a massive liability going forward if she doesn't. 

I'll almost certainly still vote for Singh regardless of who wins this leadership race. The only Federal right-of-centre party leader in an election I ever even CONSIDERED voting for as long as I could vote was PC Leader Joe Clark in 2000. I was quite close to making a vote for him in that particular election, actually.

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2 hours ago, Patine said:

 

 

 

I'll almost certainly still vote for Singh regardless of who wins this leadership race. The only Federal right-of-centre party leader in an election I ever even CONSIDERED voting for as long as I could vote was PC Leader Joe Clark in 2000. I was quite close to making a vote for him in that particular election, actually.

Good ol' Joe!

 

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@Patine is the perfect eastern Canadian 😛

To be honest just a minute, I do understand for Joe Clark

Progressive-Conservatives were much more likeable for eastern canadians than current Conservatives, particulary for Quebeckers.

When the Conservative party of Canada, in the Harper style has been created in 2003/2004, they lost many places in eastern Canada they never got back.

Because the Conservative party of Canada is considered as an anglophone western Canadian party, a bit like the Reform party.

Peter Mackay and O Toole are eastern canadians, and they are closer to the center than Andrew Scheer was. The problem is that polls are still in favor of Trudeau.

Trudeau is not really popular, but he has no real opposition. The Bloc Québécois wants to trigger an election but even with the Conservative backing they still need the NDP.

And the NDP is so ruined that they will protect Trudeau's government.

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3 hours ago, CPE said:

the Didache does mention this :

"Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water; "

Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -> Trinitarianism is a significant development. One does not equal the other. But yes, the Didache supports triadic practices in the early church.

3 hours ago, CPE said:

into the topic of proving whether Jesus was actually the Messiah or not

Yes, but Messiah (= anointed one, or prophesied King) does not equal God in any sort of obvious, scriptural way, and certainly not in conventional Jewish beliefs of the time. Again, this would have been considered blasphemy.

But I agree with you that thinking Jesus was the Messiah (Christ, hence Christians) is a core part of Christianity - tough to be a Christian without thinking that's true.

 

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I would probably back MacKay.

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13 hours ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

I would probably back MacKay.

Ah cmon you’d be a shoe-in for a Leslyn Lad! MacKay is a joker.

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1 minute ago, Reagan04 said:

Ah cmon you’d be a shoe-in for a Leslyn Lad! MacKay is a joker.

Blue Tory Conservatism as a whole is a joke. It's - heh! - "anti-Canadian." :P

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20 minutes ago, TheLiberalKitten said:

O'Toole with the win! 

RIP Mackay. Sad to see him lose but it was a great race! 

I think the Tories just might pull it off in the next federal election!

No thank you.

Leslyn all the way. We were *this* close to perfection.

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This has been a referendum on Mackay

But here is the most strange to me

1280px-CPCLeadership2020Province.png

Quebec and Alberta voting together for O Tool. Wow, it's like Alabama and Vermont voting for the same candidate in a dem primary.

Quebec has definitively been a stronghold place for O'Toole.

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55 minutes ago, Edouard said:

This has been a referendum on Mackay

But here is the most strange to me

1280px-CPCLeadership2020Province.png

Quebec and Alberta voting together for O Tool. Wow, it's like Alabama and Vermont voting for the same candidate in a dem primary.

Quebec has definitively been a stronghold place for O'Toole.

Alabama and Vermont is a bit of an extreme set of analogies, @Edouard. I mean, really?

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25 minutes ago, Patine said:

Alabama and Vermont is a bit of an extreme set of analogies, @Edouard. I mean, really?

I do not say that Alabama is Alberta 😛 but in the Dem primary it is not everyday that both states are voting for the same candidate

And for A LOT of reasons

 

Alberta is the most :

-Royalist province of Canada (even if you're not you're an Edmonton guy Patine)

-Pro oil province of Canada

-Most right-wing province of Canada (not far-right, just conservative)

 

While Quebec is the most :

-Republican province of Canada

-Anti oil province of Canada (even if they do import a lot, electors are massively favourable to green tough transition)

-One of the most left-wing province of Canada (it's a tie between Quebec and the Atlantic)

 

I do not even count the language bareer but yes, Quebec and Alberta are far different while Ontario for example is way closer of Quebec on many issues

 

The only reason why Alberta and Quebec would vote for O Tool first is thanks to his decentralization promise according to me.

Because yes, Quebec and Alberta want more decentralization.

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1 minute ago, Edouard said:

I do not say that Alabama is Alberta 😛 but in the Dem primary it is not everyday that both states are voting for the same candidate

And for A LOT of reasons

 

Alberta is the most :

-Royalist province of Canada (even if you're not you're an Edmonton guy Patine)

-Pro oil province of Canada

-Most right-wing province of Canada (not far-right, just conservative)

 

While Quebec is the most :

-Republican province of Canada

-Anti oil province of Canada (even if they do import a lot, electors are massively favourable to green tough transition)

-One of the most left-wing province of Canada (it's a tie between Quebec and the Atlantic)

 

I do not even count the language bareer but yes, Quebec and Alberta are far different while Ontario for example is way closer of Quebec on many issues

 

The only reason why Alberta and Quebec would vote for O Tool first is thanks to his decentralization promise according to me.

Because yes, Quebec and Alberta want more decentralization.

I don't think there's that many "Royalists," in Alberta - not with any sort of ideology. I think you have a very distorted view of Albertans in that particular way.

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Just now, Patine said:

I don't think there's that many "Royalists," in Alberta - not with any sort of ideology. I think you have a very distorted view of Albertans in that particular way.

Let me show you this Leger Marketing poll this might surprise you :

 

Abolition de la monarchie: le Québec fait toujours cavalier seul, selon un sondage

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2 minutes ago, Edouard said:

Let me show you this Leger Marketing poll this might surprise you :

 

Abolition de la monarchie: le Québec fait toujours cavalier seul, selon un sondage

Maybe it didn't occur to you (being from Quebec, and a Nationalist and all) that abolishing the Monarchy would be a VERY expensive undertaking with all the things that had to be renamed, re-issued, new money, new Government letterhead, coats-of-arms and such replace, and a whole bunch of other crap. Plus, the completely deprecated power the Monarchy now holds makes this trade-off undesirable for many who think about it. And, the British Monarchy makes a lot more money for Commonwealth than it costs. This is also and issue facing British, Australian, and New Zealander anti-monarchists. And, since Alberta usually gets made to bankroll these ridiculous projects, perhaps these statistics do not at all stem from the motives you think they do. But you just kind of assumed it must mean Alberta had a higher number of "loyal Royalists," than other provinces. I'm highly suspecting you are wrong in that assumption.

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11 hours ago, TheLiberalKitten said:

O'Toole with the win! 

RIP Mackay. Sad to see him lose but it was a great race! 

I think the Tories just might pull it off in the next federal election!

Wow, those are interesting results!

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I just want to add that O Toole can become a serious threat for the Bloc Québécois and the Liberals

O Tool is the most "pro provinces" candidate ever.

He brings back the CPC to the era of Brian Mulroney

He "promises to grant Quebec greater autonomy in matters of immigration, to limit the federal spending power in areas of provincial jurisdiction, to make annual federal transfers for social programs without imposing binding conditions and, finally, not to interfere in the “internal affairs” of Quebec by challenging, for example, the Law on the secularism of the State (“Bill 21”) in court, as the Trudeau government is thinking of doing."

If you want a larger CBC report about him :

 

 

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