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Don't get cocky and don't get complacent


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Just now, admin_270 said:

You don't understand the difference?

Someone goes out into the world, thinking the mask they're wearing is protecting them.

It doesn't.

It's the masks other people are wearing that might protect them.

So if you're in a crowd, and wearing a mask, it doesn't really matter, if 1 person isn't and that person is infectious.

Can you see the difference?

I see the difference. But there isn't a point to it. People have to wear masks no matter who they are to protect everyone else. It isn't rocket science. We can't just say "oh that person isn't wearing it, so no one should", cause that's reckless and a non-argument. 

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3 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

I see the difference. But there isn't a point to it. People have to wear masks no matter who they are to protect everyone else. It isn't rocket science. We can't just say "oh that person isn't wearing it, so no one should", cause that's reckless and a non-argument. 

In many places, nowhere near 100% of people wear masks while out and about. If someone has the incorrect belief that there's good evidence that one's own wearing a cloth masks protects oneself, they're going to make mistakes in their daily life when it comes to risk analysis.

Has nothing to do with whatever you're talking about in your last sentence.

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17 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

In many places, nowhere near 100% of people wear masks while out and about. If someone has the incorrect belief that there's good evidence that one's own wearing a cloth masks protects oneself, they're going to make mistakes in their daily life when it comes to risk analysis.

Has nothing to do with whatever you're talking about in your last sentence.

You never said that point once during the entire discussion, which is why I was questioning your point. 

And I have no idea why anyone would think that it's protecting themselves - it's frequently said that you're doing it to protect others. If they believe that, they need to look more into the issue than they have already. 

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20 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

In many places, nowhere near 100% of people wear masks while out and about. If someone has the incorrect belief that there's good evidence that one's own wearing a cloth masks protects oneself, they're going to make mistakes in their daily life when it comes to risk analysis.

Has nothing to do with whatever you're talking about in your last sentence.

Do you agree that everyone should be required to wear masks when they’re in public (barring a serious medical condition that would prohibit it)?

 

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3 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Do you agree that everyone should be required to wear masks when they’re in public (barring a serious medical condition that would prohibit it)?

 

Oh my goodness, no. Why would that be required, especially when outside and far away from anyone else?

Where I live, virtually no one wears a mask when outside. Maybe 30% when in stores. We also have very few cases of COVID-19.

In certain circumstances, I can see an argument for it (such as riding a subway train, especially if there's an outbreak in that area), although even there I would prefer voluntary measures instead of mandatory ones.

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3 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Oh my goodness, no. Why would that be required, especially when outside and far away from anyone else?

Where I live, virtually no one wears a mask when outside. Maybe 30% when in stores. We also have very few cases of COVID-19.

In certain circumstances, I can see an argument for it (such as riding a subway train, especially if there's an outbreak in that area), although even there I would prefer voluntary measures instead of mandatory ones.

See, this is where my confusion is.  You actually understand that wearing masks prevents the spread of the virus -- and even understand that it's not protecting the person wearing the mask, it's protecting everyone else -- and yet...what is it?  Is it just not caring about people around you?  

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15 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

You never said that point once during the entire discussion, which is why I was questioning your point. 

And I have no idea why anyone would think that it's protecting themselves - it's frequently said that you're doing it to protect others. If they believe that, they need to look more into the issue than they have already. 

 

12 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Do you agree that everyone should be required to wear masks when they’re in public (barring a serious medical condition that would prohibit it)?

 

@admin_270 has been consistently making pseudo-arguments about the COVID virus since the outbreak began that show an attitude of belittling and diminishing the seriousness of the issue from numerous highly dubious points-of-view - even seeming to claim, on several occasions, superior insights to medical specialists.

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2 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

See, this is where my confusion is.  You actually understand that wearing masks prevents the spread of the virus -- and even understand that it's not protecting the person wearing the mask, it's protecting everyone else -- and yet...what is it?  Is it just not caring about people around you?  

Do you wear a face shield?

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3 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Sure, but more effective than just wearing a mask. 

Do you avoid all unnecessary social situations?

This is a sad attempt to not answer a basic question.  If you agree with the science behind it, and you have said that you do, why would you be against wearing one?  

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Just now, Actinguy said:

This is a sad attempt to not answer a basic question.  If you agree with the science behind it, and you have said that you do, why would you be against wearing one?  

No, I'm trying to get you to think about your leading question, because you yourself do things that are similar to not wearing a mask in public.

The science on mask wearing isn't that good, but it's not terrible. It's probably a good idea for people to wear them in certain situations (close, especially confined contact where there's an outbreak). However, the evidence that mask wearing is going to make any difference outside where not close to other people is pretty weak.

 

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11 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

This is a sad attempt to not answer a basic question.  If you agree with the science behind it, and you have said that you do, why would you be against wearing one?  

Because Libertarians like him, @servo75, and @jvikings1, believe, in typical Libertarian self-centeredness, that their right not to wear a mask supersedes anyone else around them and their health and well-being. This is one of many reasons I find Libertarianism as an ideology so utterly detestable.

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5 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

No, I'm trying to get you to think about your leading question, because you yourself do things that are similar to not wearing a mask in public.

The science on mask wearing isn't that good, but it's not terrible. It's probably a good idea for people to wear them in certain situations (close, especially confined contact where there's an outbreak). However, the evidence that mask wearing is going to make any difference outside where not close to other people is pretty weak.

 

I didn't say "outside where not close to other people."  I said "out and about".  I meant when you are in public, meaning that it is not possible to 100% guarantee that you won't possibly come within six feet of someone else.

"You're not doing literally every possible extreme thing you can possibly do" is not the same as "you are not making even a minimal amount of effort".  

Yet you still haven't answered the question:  if it's probably a good idea, why won't you do it?  It's easy.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

their right not to wear a mask supersedes anyone else around them and their health and well-being

This brings up an important point.

Where I live, vaccinations are voluntary. It's a public health issue, and similar to masks (if everyone else around you is vaccinated, you don't get a health benefit from vaccination, and actually run a health risk due to adverse side-affects of the vaccination).

My society judges civil liberties to be important enough to overrule the imperatives of public health in this instance.

So even if the evidence on mandatory mask wearing in public was strong, I would say it should be voluntary, because the civil liberties being trampled by mandatory measures have value in society.

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2 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

This brings up an important point.

Where I live, vaccinations are voluntary. It's a public health issue, and similar to masks (if everyone else around you is vaccinated, you don't get a health benefit from vaccination, and actually run a health risk due to adverse side-affects of the vaccination).

My society judges civil liberties to be important enough to overrule the imperatives of public health in this instance.

So even if the evidence on mandatory mask wearing in public was strong, I would say it should be voluntary, because the civil liberties being trampled by mandatory measures have value in society.

And you?  Regardless of whether it's mandatory, do you wear a mask?  And if not, why not if you agree that it's "probably a good idea"?

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4 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

I meant when you are in public, meaning that it is not possible to 100% guarantee that you won't possibly come within six feet of someone else

OK, that's different. Maybe. Again, the evidence isn't that good for masks - and I'm weary of them having a counter-productive effect by people thinking they can engage in more activity simply because they're wearing a mask.

But if there's an outbreak, and someone's in a situation where they can't keep a good distance from others, then possibly yes. Like I said, a subway car would be an example of this.

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6 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

And you?  Regardless of whether it's mandatory, do you wear a mask?  And if not, why not if you agree that it's "probably a good idea"?

No, there's virtually no COVID-19 where I live right now. So it doesn't fit in the criteria for when it is probably a good idea.

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5 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

OK, that's different. Maybe. Again, the evidence isn't that good for masks - and I'm weary of them having a counter-productive effect by people thinking they can engage in more activity simply because they're wearing a mask.

But if there's an outbreak, and someone's in a situation where they can't keep a good distance from others, then possibly yes. Like I said, a subway car would be an example of this.

I used to live in DC, where subway was basically the only way to get around.  I was constantly sick -- not great when I had a newborn baby at home.  Extremely thankful to not be in that environment anymore, global pandemic or otherwise.

You don't have to weary of one person wearing a mask if everyone is wearing a mask.  And then most businesses can actually reopen and the economy can get moving again, which I understood to be a priority of yours.

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7 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

OK, that's different. Maybe. Again, the evidence isn't that good for masks - and I'm weary of them having a counter-productive effect by people thinking they can engage in more activity simply because they're wearing a mask.

But if there's an outbreak, and someone's in a situation where they can't keep a good distance from others, then possibly yes. Like I said, a subway car would be an example of this.

Evidence? Care to cite any of your own? I doubt the counterproductive effect is nearly as bad as you're saying than people just not wearing masks in the first place and believing its a hoax and doing those activities anyway.

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1 minute ago, Actinguy said:

I used to live in DC, where subway was basically the only way to get around.

Ya, I don't like public transit. The most annoying thing about it to me was overhearing conversations. Some were funny, but I actually don't want to hear the guy arguing on the phone with his girlfriend the seat over, and so on. But ya, what you're talking about is probably more important than that.

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4 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

then most businesses can actually reopen and the economy can get moving again, which I understood to be a priority of yours.

Oh ya, if that's what it takes, then great. But to me the first and foremost question is whether they actually make much of a difference, and if so in which situations.

Where I live, basically all businesses have reopened ... for now, anyway. As we see with NZ, this can be a temporary thing.

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Just now, admin_270 said:

Ya, I don't like public transit. The most annoying thing about it to me was overhearing conversations. Some were funny, but I actually don't want to hear the guy arguing on the phone with his girlfriend the seat over, and so on. But ya, what you're talking about is probably more important than that.

I love public transportation more than being in car. Generally, there's more leg room (I'm 6'4"), I can walk around, I don't have to think about paying attention to the road, which allows me to read or blank out (thinking). Every once in awhile I get in a good conversation with someone I'll never see again. 

I am really good at tuning people out. Most of the time I don't recall a single thing a person said because I never paid attention to what people were saying around me. 

You also don't have to worry about parking. It's a lot of freedom if you are in a downtown area. I've owned a car only once in my life (in 2013). I never needed one in Dallas. I didn't need one in college. I didn't need on in 5 years in NYC. I used a car when I returned to Texas. I got rid of it when I went to Philadelphia. 

I also like walking, which is another reason a car isn't helpful to me. I'll walk to any place that is wthin an hour's walk of me, sometimes even further. Sometimes I'll get 20 miles worth of steps in a day, although this is all pre-Covid. 

If I had to choose a public transportation I like least it would be the buses. I avoid those when I can, but I love trains, subways, and streetcars. 

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Just now, Actinguy said:

Not in a DC metro (subway).  Sardine city.  There were times I'd feel my phone buzz in my pocket and couldn't even get to it because we were packed in too tight.

That's because you took it during rush hour. Same thing happens in NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, etc. I would hang out in whatever city I was in for about an hour or more and then go home just to avoid it. I always had places I wanted to go see, so it never bothered me to wait. Generally, I went to a bookstore, coffee shop, ate somewhere, hung out with a co-worker, went to a bar, walked around, etc. 

I've only been on the DC subway a few times, but it was never crowded when I was on it. 

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