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Democratic National Convention Schedule Poll


Democratic National Convention Schedule Poll  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Who are you most looking forward to listening to on Day 1?

    • Amy Klobuchar
    • Catherine Cortez Masto
    • Andrew Cuomo
    • Gretchen Whitmer
    • Jim Clyburn
    • Bennie Thompson
    • Gwen Moore
      0
    • Doug Jones
    • Bernie Sanders
    • John Kasich
    • Michelle Obama
  2. 2. Who are you most looking forward to listening to on Day 2?

    • Keynote Address - Stacey Abrams leads a group of 16 others to give a joint speech from up and coming Democrats
    • Sally Yates
    • Chuck Schumer
    • John Kerry
    • Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
    • Lisa Blunt Rochester
      0
    • Bill Clinton
    • Jill Biden
    • None of the above
  3. 3. Who are you most looking forward to listening to on Day 3?

    • Elizabeth Warren
    • Nancy Pelosi
    • Hillary Clinton
    • Tony Evers
      0
    • Michelle Lujan Grisham
    • Gabby Giffords
      0
    • Kamala Harris
    • Barack Obama
    • None of the above
  4. 4. Who are you most looking forward to listening to on Day 4?

    • Cory Booker
    • Pete Buttigieg
    • Gavin Newsom
    • Keisha Lance Bottoms
    • Tammy Baldwin
    • Tammy Duckworth
    • Chris Coons
      0
    • Michael Bloomberg
    • Andrew Yang
    • Joe Biden
    • None of the above
      0
    • None of the above
      0
  5. 5. Is this a good convention lineup?



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3 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

How did you reach the conclusion that many hate him?

I don’t hate him and I don’t know any Democrats (most of whom are moderates, amongst my friends) who do.

At worst, we think he’s a good guy with good intentions but a bit naive, or that if he were the general election nominee he would lose to Donald Trump.  You can disagree with either belief and that’s okay, but it’s just not true that moderates hate him.  We just don’t think he’s our best bet as President.

It might be because I'm exposed to a different kind of Moderate. It might be Selection Bias on my part. But what I don't doubt is that the Moderate Politicians and establishment figures have a seething hatred for Bernie. Not necessarily the voters. 

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6 hours ago, Actinguy said:

78188FD2-733A-49D2-9092-C297BC2B2A21.jpeg.a96f39d0ace47a8493c688d71833d416.jpeg

I was responding to a statement you made in a way to clarify the perspective. I think the viewpoint you have, as shown in this meme gif file (meme gif files are a highly annoying usage of Internet forum communication, and I wish a setting, or free software, that blocked that them out entirely) is a sign of egotism and/or paranoia, both of which you really should get over, even though I'm well aware both are bred in military officer ranks - it's unbecoming and irritating on Internet forums.

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11 minutes ago, Patine said:

I was responding to a statement you made in a way to clarify the perspective. I think the viewpoint you have, as shown in this meme gif file (meme gif files are a highly annoying usage of Internet forum communication, and I wish a setting, or free software, that blocked that them out entirely) is a sign of egotism and/or paranoia, both of which you really should get over, even though I'm well aware both are bred in military officer ranks - it's unbecoming and irritating on Internet forums.

Ha -- I was not an officer.  I was about as low-ranking of an enlistee as they come.  

As for memes and gifs...I assure you, they're definitely part of internet forums.  I feel like maybe you've noticed this already, as I've seen you complaining about them before.

Also, your attempt to "clarify the perspective", was dumb.  

Sorry, that's not fair.  Let me use a much better word.

"Stupid."

That's the word you used to help clarify the perspective.  In what way is that furthering the conversation?  Do you believe that's going to convince me to see things from your clearer perspective?  "Gosh, I've got these degrees and this career and these responsibilities that suggest that I have some modicum of intelligence, but a random social worker in Canada who has never met me and hates everything thinks that I'm representing something that is stupid even though what I said was actually factual, so let me turn my whole life perspective around right this instant."

You're wasting your time.  Your method of communication is so off-putting that it will never convince me of anything.  If your goal is to convince me of something, you have failed.  If that wasn't your goal, what are you doing?

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19 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Ha -- I was not an officer.  I was about as low-ranking of an enlistee as they come.  

As for memes and gifs...I assure you, they're definitely part of internet forums.  I feel like maybe you've noticed this already, as I've seen you complaining about them before.

Also, your attempt to "clarify the perspective", was dumb.  

Sorry, that's not fair.  Let me use a much better word.

"Stupid."

That's the word you used to help clarify the perspective.  In what way is that furthering the conversation?  Do you believe that's going to convince me to see things from your clearer perspective?  "Gosh, I've got these degrees and this career and these responsibilities that suggest that I have some modicum of intelligence, but a random social worker in Canada who has never met me and hates everything thinks that I'm representing something that is stupid even though what I said was actually factual, so let me turn my whole life perspective around right this instant."

You're wasting your time.  Your method of communication is so off-putting that it will never convince me of anything.  If your goal is to convince me of something, you have failed.  If that wasn't your goal, what are you doing?

This "question," is setup in such an arrogant and baity way, ready to pounce on ANY possible answer I may give - probably only half-read - and ridicule me for personal preferences and views that I may let slip that are completely unrelated. I'm dropping this one. I'm not "conceding defeat or your point," but pointing out the level of pointlessness you've turned this into. And all of these things are things you used to excoriate me for. In certain areas, you're becoming me, and in certain others, you're becoming Trump. How does this make you feel?

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Just now, Patine said:

This "question," is setup in such an arrogant and baity way, ready to pounce on ANY possible answer I may give - probably only half-read - and ridicule me for personal preferences and views that I may let slip that are completely unrelated. I'm dropping this one. I'm not "conceding defeat or your point," but pointing out the level of pointlessness you've turned this into. And all of these things are things you used to excoriate me for. In certain areas, you're becoming me, and in certain others, you're becoming Trump. How does this make you feel?

In a word?

Disinterested.

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9 minutes ago, Patine said:

This "question," is setup in such an arrogant and baity way, ready to pounce on ANY possible answer I may give - probably only half-read - and ridicule me for personal preferences and views that I may let slip that are completely unrelated. I'm dropping this one. I'm not "conceding defeat or your point," but pointing out the level of pointlessness you've turned this into. And all of these things are things you used to excoriate me for. In certain areas, you're becoming me, and in certain others, you're becoming Trump. How does this make you feel?

 

34 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Ha -- I was not an officer.  I was about as low-ranking of an enlistee as they come.  

As for memes and gifs...I assure you, they're definitely part of internet forums.  I feel like maybe you've noticed this already, as I've seen you complaining about them before.

Also, your attempt to "clarify the perspective", was dumb.  

Sorry, that's not fair.  Let me use a much better word.

"Stupid."

That's the word you used to help clarify the perspective.  In what way is that furthering the conversation?  Do you believe that's going to convince me to see things from your clearer perspective?  "Gosh, I've got these degrees and this career and these responsibilities that suggest that I have some modicum of intelligence, but a random social worker in Canada who has never met me and hates everything thinks that I'm representing something that is stupid even though what I said was actually factual, so let me turn my whole life perspective around right this instant."

You're wasting your time.  Your method of communication is so off-putting that it will never convince me of anything.  If your goal is to convince me of something, you have failed.  If that wasn't your goal, what are you doing?

I think you are both wasting your time. I usually have to skip over what you both say to each other because it sounds like the same argument every day. It's like a disharmonious married couple with the same repetitive disagreements. I strongly recommend that you both just block each other. I'm starting to see the appeal of blocking people. I haven't yet blocked Servo, but I have before, and I think I probably will the next time he says something borderline-racist or bigotted. 

The forum loses a lot of joy when it the debates turn to repetitiveness or worse, repetitive mudslinging. 

From my own point of view, while I agree with Patine on 90% of what he believes politically, it is noticeable that Patine is the only person that gets in wars with Actinguy. No one else does. He doesn't getting in wars with other poeple (except occasional battles with Admin). On top of this, Patine seems to get in wars with several people from time to time. Actinguy doesn't start wars except in self-defense. The ironic thing is Patine is against military intervention and is basically a pacifist, but he's arguably the biggest warmonger in this forum in regards to attacking people. I say this with some sadness, since I consider Patine a friend, but I've been speaking out more and more against Patine's behavior because I'm getting sick of it. 

The debate tactics are not only unconvincing, but they are turning away people that should be allied with you (me, for instance) to protect people with who I am politically in less agreement. 

Sure, Actinguy is goading Patine (who is easily goadable) into attacks. This must stop as well. However, it started with Patine. I remember at first, Actinguy was rarely responding in kind. It just seemed odd to me that Patine was having some sort of fit -- similar to a schizophrenic on a street corner threatening a passerby that has no clue what he did wrong. Actinguy would even make at least some token gestures of understanding an alternative viewpoint. All of a sudden Actingy is Dick Cheney himself! At some point, the attacks become so unreasonable as to be certifiably insane. At that point, the only response is to 1) ignore them--block them   2) Are turn it into some sort of game by provoking the crazy person! 

I've been trying to keep out of this. I just can't anymore. It's noise. It's accompishing NOTHING. It's becoming pathological. It's making me not want to be on the forum. I will block people that act crazy, even if I like them personally. The world is crazy enough. I just can't deal with lunacy, especially in 2020. 

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@vcczar Agreed.  About a year ago, I was taking Patine seriously and engaging with him -- sometimes leading to full scale fights that were distracting me from my real life in an unhealthy way.  I tried blocking him, but I'd still get alerts every time he responded to something -- and he wasn't willing to stop responding.

Eventually, I learned to stop taking him seriously -- though this has taken various forms.  In my best moments, I roll my eyes and move on.  In my weakest, I laugh at one of his attacks directly, as above.

I don't mind differences of opinion.  @admin_270 and I go at it pretty regularly, but it's usually a calm exchange of facts (or at least our best attempts at them).  I've had disagreements with folks on both sides of the political spectrum, including you, but none of them were intended to be or ever felt personal.  

With Patine, it's rarely a disagreement of facts.  It's usually more along the lines that I am the scum of the earth -- most days I don't let that affect me, but occasionally it's just gone on long enough that I swat back.

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18 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

@vcczar Agreed.  About a year ago, I was taking Patine seriously and engaging with him -- sometimes leading to full scale fights that were distracting me from my real life in an unhealthy way.  I tried blocking him, but I'd still get alerts every time he responded to something -- and he wasn't willing to stop responding.

Eventually, I learned to stop taking him seriously -- though this has taken various forms.  In my best moments, I roll my eyes and move on.  In my weakest, I laugh at one of his attacks directly, as above.

I don't mind differences of opinion.  @admin_270 and I go at it pretty regularly, but it's usually a calm exchange of facts (or at least our best attempts at them).  I've had disagreements with folks on both sides of the political spectrum, including you, but none of them were intended to be or ever felt personal.  

With Patine, it's rarely a disagreement of facts.  It's usually more along the lines that I am the scum of the earth -- most days I don't let that affect me, but occasionally it's just gone on long enough that I swat back.

It's unfortunate that your parting shot is worded this way - typical of the attitude I've found most objectionable in dealing with you. But, I can see @vcczar's point here, and I have fallen into a neurotic trap. I will disengage from @Actinguy for my own sanity and the forum, even though, outside a few specific trigger areas, I don't disagree with him on facts a lot - just take objection to his arrogant, self-righteous, and paternalistic attitude, and probably the only regular forum user at the moment who has never admitted to being wrong or in error on anything (even @servo75 has, believe it or not, though usually a fecitious or spiteful recognition that certain facts are against, but that it doesn't matter to him anyways).

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28 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

I don't mind differences of opinion.  @admin_270 and I go at it pretty regularly, but it's usually a calm exchange of facts (or at least our best attempts at them).  I've had disagreements with folks on both sides of the political spectrum, including you, but none of them were intended to be or ever felt personal.

The reason I engage on the forum is to learn things and refine my worldview. Partially because I want to understand differing views for game development, and find the dialectical process useful often for that, partially just in general to improve my understanding. If I sense the discussion isn't going to help with that, I move on.

I view Patine as a bit of a Socratic figure. There's a reason Socrates was known as 'the gadfly of Athens'!

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2 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

The reason I engage on the forum is to learn things and refine my worldview. Partially because I want to understand differing views for game development, and find the dialectical process useful often for that, partially just in general to improve my understanding. If I sense the discussion isn't going to help with that, I move on.

I view Patine as a bit of a Socratic figure. There's a reason Socrates was known as 'the gadfly of Athens'!

But he was the mentor of the mentor of Plato, the man who wrote the "Republic." And all arrogant, self-involved, corrupt, nepotistic, and unaccountable regimes have such unflattering names to anyone who regularly calls them to task - but such people are an asset, not detriment, in the long-term and the broad-scale. And, I notice @Actinguy's self-righteousness and arrogance gets no parting mention. Administrator bias detected.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

But he was the mentor of the mentor of Plato, the man who wrote the "Republic." And all arrogant, self-involved, corrupt, nepotistic, and unaccountable regimes have such unflattering names to anyone who regularly calls them to task - but such people are an asset, not detriment, in the long-term and the broad-scale. And, I notice @Actinguy's self-righteousness and arrogance gets no parting mention. Administrator bias detected.

Not intended as a negative term here. Socrates himself used it! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadfly_(philosophy_and_social_science)

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25 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

I view Patine as a bit of a Socratic figure. There's a reason Socrates was known as 'the gadfly of Athens'!

There's a huge difference between Socrates and Patine. If Socrates disagreed with someone, he aimed to reveal the fault in the other person's thinking by asking questions that were designed for the other person to reveal flaws in their own argument. Socrates didn't come out guns blazing and in fiery disagreement. He often pretended to be naive. Socratic irony. Patinic Irony is almost the opposite. It's to go into the "debate" already knowing and making sure the other person doesn't know, and ironically engage in a debate with the purpose of converting an opinion while at the same time employing methods that will convert no one. There's no attempt to have the other person realize they are wrong on their own. 

This said, @Patine, in my opinion is often right on many of his political views, mainly because we align in many ways ideologically. I would be overjoyed if he did play the part of Socrates. His more proper analogy might be Diogenes of Sinope ("Socrates Gone Mad"). Diogenes makes no attempt to really teach anyone anything or convert an opinion, Diogenes just is, and is often reactionary. Diogenes is also more puritan than Socrates. Plato would have never accepted Diogenes as a teacher; Diogenes would never accept Plato as a student. 

 

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1 minute ago, vcczar said:

There's a huge difference between Socrates and Patine. If Socrates disagreed with someone, he aimed to reveal the fault in the other person's thinking by asking questions that were designed for the other person to reveal flaws in their own argument. Socrates didn't come out guns blazing and in fiery disagreement. He often pretended to be naive. Socratic irony. Patinic Irony is almost the opposite. It's to go into the "debate" already knowing and making sure the other person doesn't know, and ironically engage in a debate with the purpose of converting an opinion while at the same time employing methods that will convert no one. There's no attempt to have the other person realize they are wrong on their own. 

This said, @Patine, in my opinion is often right on many of his political views, mainly because we align in many ways ideologically. I would be overjoyed if he did play the part of Socrates. His more proper analogy might be Diogenes of Sinope ("Socrates Gone Mad"). Diogenes makes no attempt to really teach anyone anything or convert an opinion, Diogenes just is, and is often reactionary. Diogenes is also more puritan than Socrates. Plato would have never accepted Diogenes as a teacher; Diogenes would never accept Plato as a student. 

 

In my own defense, I have tried, at various times, here and there, the "Socratic questioning tactic." I have literally had my questions ignored or brushed aside while other points of the other individual were just carried on with as though the questions were never asked, the questions answered in a way completely non-responsive or counter-intuitive to the intent of the question (often deliberately), or being berated for even asking such a question and the "ulterior motives I must have for daring to do so." I doubt Socrates himself got that kind of flack a lot.

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27 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

What, I thought these were light skirmishes at worst. 😉  💣💥💥

I mean relative to @Actinguy's usual conversation. I only sense any heat between @Actinguy and anyone with you, Servo, and Patine, with the latter being a World War. You might sense it as a skirmish, but it's a noticeably different energy from him then when he's disagreeing with other people. 

I'd say we get into something more than skirmashes on occasion. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Patine said:

In my own defense, I have tried, at various times, here and there, the "Socratic questioning tactic." I have literally had my questions ignored or brushed aside while other points of the other individual were just carried on with as though the questions were never asked, the questions answered in a way completely non-responsive or counter-intuitive to the intent of the question (often deliberately), or being berated for even asking such a question and the "ulterior motives I must have for daring to do so." I doubt Socrates himself got that kind of flack a lot.

He was given hemlock. 

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22 hours ago, vcczar said:

The ironic thing is Patine is against military intervention and is basically a pacifist, but he's arguably the biggest warmonger in this forum in regards to attacking people.

Lmao

21 hours ago, admin_270 said:

I view Patine as a bit of a Socratic figure. There's a reason Socrates was known as 'the gadfly of Athens'!

I agree with this. @Patine is probably the most unique person on the forum lol.

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