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On 8/4/2020 at 8:20 PM, pilight said:

Some sources say

"some sources"? Really...

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Honestly, this is more hostile than anything they said, but you don't see me crying to the admin. Grow up.

I appreciate the apology. I apologize for instances wherein I've cross the line.  Like others, I think politics is a combat sport, even if we don't want it to be. Politics is more personal than e

I don't want to make this long, but I do want to send out an apology to @Reagan04 and @Patine and @vcczar for some nasty unbecoming things I've said lately. I have removed almost everyone from my igno

57 minutes ago, servo75 said:

Well, what's the alternative? How else would you make money? Would you plant trees and grow it? How do you start NY business without capital? Whether it's gained through loans, gifts, or winning the lottery, try getting an invention or company off the ground without it. Truth is, without "greed" as so many would put it, so much of the wealth, jobs, and technological innovations we have wouldn't have happened. Using that word is deliberate, I think, to give wealth negative connotations. It's because of income inequality, or more precisely the promise of it, and the pursuit of profit that motivates people. And yes, people will get filthy rich off doing that. So what? The Bernie Sanders types imply that wealth and inequality in and of themselves are a problem that must be "corrected" by government.

In the pre-Obama days, Democrats and Republicans generally agreed on one thing about taxes, that they were strictly for funding the necessary functions of government. Left and right would disagree on what those functions were, or tweak taxes a few percent here and there, a few billion for this program instead of that, but mostly were in fundamental agreement. The modern left seems to view taxes differently, as either a punishment or a way to decrease inequality simply for its own sake. Such redistribution hurts everyone because the people who previously worked hard to earn a profit will lose motivation (why should I develop that breakthrough drug or vaccine if the government, knowing nothing about what it costs to do so, will artificially limit my prices) and wealth production goes down.

 

This rambling post has so much predictable and tiring propaganda that it’s almost not even worth responding to. It also misses my point. 

I’m not talking about greed or job producing. I accept that wealth bring some positives, even when the chief motive is one person’s desire for profit, and even when that one person might not have any interest in the people he employs or people that he’s taking money from. I’m talking about a flaw in capitalism that you brought up: That one needs money to make money. That’s a problem that creates inherent inequality and inequity. A good society shouldn’t rely on a system where the rich get richer and the majority (the non-rich) just have to accept that. Systems—even the best of them—need reform to be improved and reduce flaws  

Your last paragraph is complete garbage, at least how it is currently written. I’d engage in a debate about it if you seemed capable of any coherent reason, introspection, or self-doubt. I’m not going to engage with people that don’t seem to care that there is a world outside themself.

If you want to debate anyone on here, you should attempt—no, succeed—in showing some shred of self-doubt. No one wants to debate a kool-aid drinker. I’m wondering if you have the sanity to name 5 flaws of capitalism? 

Overall, I’m done talking to someone that berates other users on this forum (I’ve read your comments to others) and is incapable of seeing any potential drawbacks and the validity of concerns of those drawbacks of their own chosen political and economic views. 

Until I see a genuine reform in your person, I revoke my apology to you. You started this thread as a peace offering but you pretty much turned it around into another one of your angry attacks on anyone that slightly disagrees with you as soon as you issued it. I had a hunch it would based on the quasi-defensive tone of the “apology.” 

For now, I refuse to engage in your posts until I see consistent and sustained change in you and in your relations with other people and their ideas.  

Good bye. 

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3 hours ago, servo75 said:

I think you're taking me way too literally here.

Amazingly, when words are written, they are often taken for their definitions and how they fit together in a context.

3 hours ago, servo75 said:

I'm making a VERY general point that the Republican Party has failed to stand up for its values for a long time, and that their reaction to the usual charges of "racism" by the left were to apologize for their views so they weren't called bad names by the media. Even if you don't like the rise of Donald Trump, I'm saying he is the symptom, not the disease. 30 years of spineless Republicans who talk conservative values but melt under the hot lights of the Washington establishment. The Republican Party has been in cahoots with the Democrats in sending our jobs overseas, selling us out to the highest bidder. It's really not a complicated statement, I think you're trying to read all this "MAGA" stuff into it which is really not my intent.

Ok I understand you saying this and while I somewhat agree I also take issue with a large portion of what you said which is why I reponded line-item to your concerns.

3 hours ago, servo75 said:

uh? Did I say that? I don't recall making such a statement. My point was only that the Democrats always play the race card when Republicans bring up fiscally conservative and small government values, and instead of standing up for those principles they apologize for them to avoid being called mean names.

My point was an irony about you thinking that conservatives cowered after being called racist in the days of Bush. I have no earthly idea what you're talking about and furthermore we weren't being called racist for tax cuts or small government. We were probably being called racist for the voter suppression.

3 hours ago, servo75 said:

I get that you hate Trump, but please stop trying to read "Trump is the greatest, MAGA MAGA MAGA" between every line I write. It's gotten to the point where you seem to feel a reflexive need to insert insults to the President even when they have nothing to do with the topic I'm bringing up. Please stop with the non-sequitur, I'm losing my patience with this!

No, servo. You essentially prefaced the whole thing by saying "Trump is better than the following period in GOP history" and that "we've tried it the non-Trump way" so of course I'm going to make the logical argument that "No, Trump still isn't the answer and you should recognize just how bad he is." And it isn't that I hate Trump, I don't hate people. But I do strongly dislike his policies, his demeanor, his incompetence, and the effect he's had on the GOP.

3 hours ago, servo75 said:

This whole thread is about trying to find common ground and I sense that you're trying to go out of your way to be argumentative.

I'm really not, I'm just responding to arguments you have made.

3 hours ago, servo75 said:

I'm saying that the GOP has been feckless at best since Reagan left office with the possible exception of Gingrich's speakership in 1995. Nothing more, nothing less. Period.

On this we could likely agree.

3 hours ago, servo75 said:

First, I mentioned nothing about systemic racism. Again, please stop telling me I'm saying things that I'm not saying. What I mean by "your way" has nothing to do with that, and I mean you as in the colloquial sense.

Ah I see. Then this was my fault. You addressed the "your" "to all the Never-Trumpers" of which I am one. So I wanted to make clear that it's not just Neocons that are Never-Trumpers and that, in fact, my way had never been tried in the GOP. And I know you didn't mention it. I mentioned it because it's a huge part of how I believe the GOP needs to reform itself. i.e. the opposite of Trumpist reforms.

3 hours ago, servo75 said:

I mean that when people complain about Trump's personality, his brashness, his in-your-face bully pulpit style, I'm saying the old genteel Marquess-of-Queensbury Republican Party has been ineffective at best. I'm not going to argue whether or not Trump is the solution to that, but really, what has the Republican Party done to combat left-wing policy over the last few decades, reduce spending and the deficit, closing unneeded agencies?

Nothing, to be sure. And this is why I enjoyed Ted Cruz and the Pauls and Justin Amash and Mike Lee and all our friends on that side of the party until they sold their soul to an authoritarian who likes big government even more than George Bush. This is why I said we had the opportunity to take a huge leap forward as a party in 2016 and we wound up taking 10 leaps back.

3 hours ago, servo75 said:

And as for Republicans not fixing systemic racism, hmm... I seem to remember a man called Abraham Lincoln, something about a Civil War, and 13th-15th Amendments passed with little Democrat support, and Civil Rights Acts passed, again by Republicans over Democrat filibusters.

I mean cool. That was 50 years ago. It's a huge part of why I believe the Republican Party can still be saved and why I'm still a proud Republican. Liberty and Equality are in our DNA. It's also still not fixed. We've since then added on policies that continue to harm communities of color. Let's talk about our goals for 2020 not 1960.

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So I think there may have been some mis-understanding here. In my opinion, I could be mistaken, but I thought you were responding not to my arguments, but to the arguments that you thought I was making. I do realize I can tend to ramble and make a long post on a short topic, so let me see if I can sum up my post more briefly:

The Republican Party, Trump notwithstanding, is in need of reform. They have not stayed true to their principles. One example is the betrayal of the Tea Party class, people like Paul Ryan who campaign on conservative principles, even touting Ayn Rand, and then they get elected and continue the high spending. They believe that "compromise with Democrats" is a euphemism for "just give them what they want." Another is Republicans campaigning on repealing Obamacare. We gave them the House, and the Senate, and then the White House with a President who at least wanted to fulfill that promise. And they choked. This is not limited to just the party, but conservatism in general has not communicated their principles effectively enough, and thus have ceded the culture war to the left. Bipartisan compromise is good and necessary, but when the GOP compromises with the Democrats, the Dems seem to always get the better of the deal. One example: Simpson-Mazzoli Act of 1986. Reagan signed a bill for amnesty in exchange for tougher immigration laws and yes, a border wall. They got the amnesty, we never got the wall.

So given that premise, "your way" (again the general "you") has produced very ineffective GOP legislators and candidates. Trump's nomination was a result of Republican voters reacting to years of broken promises and ineffectual candidates. As much as I like Ted Cruz, Hillary would have mopped the floor with him. The man barely won re-election in Texas, how is he going to win a national election? Romney was too "nice" a guy to really effectively go after Obama. I am not saying that Trump is THE answer to the GOP failures of the past (I do happen to agree that he is, but it's beside the point really). I do not make this as a pro-Trump or anti-Trump statement, simply giving my analysis of what resulted in Trumpism in the first place, that if the Republican Party and the conservative movement had fought for their principles and actually pushed back more against the Democrats, we'd be in a better spot in the Overton Window and we might actually have a President Ron Paul right now.

That's all.

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4 hours ago, servo75 said:

So I think there may have been some mis-understanding here. In my opinion, I could be mistaken, but I thought you were responding not to my arguments, but to the arguments that you thought I was making. I do realize I can tend to ramble and make a long post on a short topic, so let me see if I can sum up my post more briefly:

The Republican Party, Trump notwithstanding, is in need of reform. They have not stayed true to their principles. One example is the betrayal of the Tea Party class, people like Paul Ryan who campaign on conservative principles, even touting Ayn Rand, and then they get elected and continue the high spending. They believe that "compromise with Democrats" is a euphemism for "just give them what they want." Another is Republicans campaigning on repealing Obamacare. We gave them the House, and the Senate, and then the White House with a President who at least wanted to fulfill that promise. And they choked. This is not limited to just the party, but conservatism in general has not communicated their principles effectively enough, and thus have ceded the culture war to the left. Bipartisan compromise is good and necessary, but when the GOP compromises with the Democrats, the Dems seem to always get the better of the deal. One example: Simpson-Mazzoli Act of 1986. Reagan signed a bill for amnesty in exchange for tougher immigration laws and yes, a border wall. They got the amnesty, we never got the wall.

So given that premise, "your way" (again the general "you") has produced very ineffective GOP legislators and candidates. Trump's nomination was a result of Republican voters reacting to years of broken promises and ineffectual candidates. As much as I like Ted Cruz, Hillary would have mopped the floor with him. The man barely won re-election in Texas, how is he going to win a national election? Romney was too "nice" a guy to really effectively go after Obama. I am not saying that Trump is THE answer to the GOP failures of the past (I do happen to agree that he is, but it's beside the point really). I do not make this as a pro-Trump or anti-Trump statement, simply giving my analysis of what resulted in Trumpism in the first place, that if the Republican Party and the conservative movement had fought for their principles and actually pushed back more against the Democrats, we'd be in a better spot in the Overton Window and we might actually have a President Ron Paul right now.

That's all.

Has Trump given you what you sought from the Republican Party?  Has he made you proud to be affiliated with him?

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On 8/9/2020 at 4:12 AM, vcczar said:

For now, I refuse to engage in your posts until I see consistent and sustained change in you and in your relations with other people and their ideas.  

Good bye. 

Feeling's mutual. You'd actually be doing me a favor. I don't think I deserved this type of outburst and when I said, "arguing me instead of arguing my points" you have exhibited the epitomy of such. That's the lazy way out - argue the person instead of the argument. Sure I could have been off-topic at this point but I don't think I deserved anywhere near the amount of ire I got from you.

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On 8/9/2020 at 3:31 PM, Actinguy said:

Has Trump given you what you sought from the Republican Party?  Has he made you proud to be affiliated with him?

I'm not "affiliated" with him. I have explained this over and over again. Look at my profile for Pete's sake. He's given us some things, and not others. Shades of gray in everything. Overall I'd give him a B. Again that wasn't even the point of my post. I do this old-fashioned thing that most American voters do. They look at a candidate or a President, evaluate the pros and cons, do their own research and form independent opinions. I am not a MAGA person nor am I a Trump hater. Is that POSSIBLE??In this polarized society is it even humanly possible to talk about our President without thinking he's either the best person ever or the reincarnation of the devil? Sheez! Certain people on this forum need to understand the difference between debating a topic and debating a person. That post was 10 times more "anti-Republican" than "pro-Trump." I'm fully aware that Trump has many flaws and I think if certain people would calm down a bit they might find we have many opinions in common.

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On 8/9/2020 at 4:12 AM, vcczar said:

I revoke my apology to you.

Mutual.

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Well.... that went about as well as a fart in an elevator, didn't it?

I tried to be magnanimous and take the high road, but some people just have so much TDS they can't handle even that. They have been permanently placed on my ignore list, so hopefully that will make this a more pleasant place.

 

@admin_270, several times I have taken hiatuses from this board to clear my mind and because it was causing me too much stress. But then I realized, "Why should I leave?" We need some tighter control over these boards in terms of standards of human decency. I argue very hard because I seem to be ideologically outnumbered by a 20-1 ratio. But I have never, except for a few occasions when I did forget myself, do anything to cause anyone PERSONAL insult. But some people just can't behave like adults. They don't know how to debate. They argue the man instead of the argument. The level of civility on your board has taken a turn for the worse, and it seems like we have an extreme version of the Pareto Principle here. It seems like 95% of the posts are coming from 5% of the members. I think I'm probably not the only person who's been avoiding these forums because they just don't want to deal with the crap and incivility of a few people.

I could hang out on boards of only conservatives or only Trump supporters but what fun is there in that? I enjoy good natured debate even arguments, as long as they don't turn personal. When people are insulting others in the third person, conveying personal motives rather than simple differences of opinion, that's causing a poisonous culture that will drag things down very quickly and cause any voice of moderation to leave - much like the polarization of our society - it's all far right and far left arguing against each other and the moderates feel silenced. It's too bad.

Please feel free to PM me, I want to be part of the solution, and I tried to mend fences, but with some people they just aren't mendable. I don't believe people like @Patine and @vcczar are typical of the members here. There are good people here who never log on because they're tired of the shit. And you two, don't bother to reply. You're on my ignore list and I will never again see anything you post. I TRIED to reach out, you wouldn't take it. And I'm fully open to admitting I'm wrong sometimes (As I just did in this very thread), but when people choose to insult me instead, I tend to become less inclined to apologize even if I  know I'm in the wrong. I'm much more amenable to admitting my shortcomings if they're approached civilly instead of impugning everything I say as if I have some personal motive.

@admin_270  I'd like to help turn this into a more positive space, where people debate and argue vigorously but still go out for drinks afterward (virtually). But I won't put up with personal insults from people who aren't familiar with the rules of civil debate. Can you please PM me to discuss further?

 

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13 minutes ago, servo75 said:

Well.... that went about as well as a fart in an elevator, didn't it?

I tried to be magnanimous and take the high road, but some people just have so much TDS they can't handle even that. They have been permanently placed on my ignore list, so hopefully that will make this a more pleasant place.

 

@admin_270, several times I have taken hiatuses from this board to clear my mind and because it was causing me too much stress. But then I realized, "Why should I leave?" We need some tighter control over these boards in terms of standards of human decency. I argue very hard because I seem to be ideologically outnumbered by a 20-1 ratio. But I have never, except for a few occasions when I did forget myself, do anything to cause anyone PERSONAL insult. But some people just can't behave like adults. They don't know how to debate. They argue the man instead of the argument. The level of civility on your board has taken a turn for the worse, and it seems like we have an extreme version of the Pareto Principle here. It seems like 95% of the posts are coming from 5% of the members. I think I'm probably not the only person who's been avoiding these forums because they just don't want to deal with the crap and incivility of a few people.

I could hang out on boards of only conservatives or only Trump supporters but what fun is there in that? I enjoy good natured debate even arguments, as long as they don't turn personal. When people are insulting others in the third person, conveying personal motives rather than simple differences of opinion, that's causing a poisonous culture that will drag things down very quickly and cause any voice of moderation to leave - much like the polarization of our society - it's all far right and far left arguing against each other and the moderates feel silenced. It's too bad.

Please feel free to PM me, I want to be part of the solution, and I tried to mend fences, but with some people they just aren't mendable. I don't believe people like @Patine and @vcczar are typical of the members here. There are good people here who never log on because they're tired of the shit. And you two, don't bother to reply. You're on my ignore list and I will never again see anything you post. I TRIED to reach out, you wouldn't take it. And I'm fully open to admitting I'm wrong sometimes (As I just did in this very thread), but when people choose to insult me instead, I tend to become less inclined to apologize even if I  know I'm in the wrong. I'm much more amenable to admitting my shortcomings if they're approached civilly instead of impugning everything I say as if I have some personal motive.

@admin_270  I'd like to help turn this into a more positive space, where people debate and argue vigorously but still go out for drinks afterward (virtually). But I won't put up with personal insults from people who aren't familiar with the rules of civil debate. Can you please PM me to discuss further?

 

I perused this thread and couldn't find any personal insults. All I see is them pointing out weaknesses (or complete inaccuracies) in your argument. I think you need to grow some thicker skin. This is already a pretty civilized forum. If you want to see uncivilized, go join your local town's political Facebook page.

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The funny thing to me is that you complain about people being rude, but then say they have "Trump Derangement Syndrom" and have personally called me a snowflake, and I haven't participated in any discussion with you in a while even. That isnt an opinion, thats hypocrisy. It seems you just can't take when someone has another opinion that goes against your own. 

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16 minutes ago, jnewt said:

I perused this thread and couldn't find any personal insults. All I see is them pointing out weaknesses (or complete inaccuracies) in your argument. I think you need to grow some thicker skin. This is already a pretty civilized forum. If you want to see uncivilized, go join your local town's political Facebook page.

Thank you for your input.

a) It's not just this thread.

b) This last post wasn't even addressed to you. Plus I don't really care what you think on this matter, nor did I ask your opinion.

Thanks again.

 

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11 minutes ago, servo75 said:

Thank you for your input.

a) It's not just this thread.

b) This last post wasn't even addressed to you. Plus I don't really care what you think on this matter, nor did I ask your opinion.

Thanks again.

 

Honestly, this is more hostile than anything they said, but you don't see me crying to the admin. Grow up.

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