Jump to content
270soft Forum

Are depictions of Jesus as having European features racist?


Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, vcczar said:

A lot of scholars think he was just doodling on the ground and had a rudimentary knowledge of letters and numbers

'A lot of scholars' think he was literate. We don't get anywhere with this sort of reference.

However, you're ignoring that he also read in the temple. You cannot do this with rudimentary knowledge of letters.

3 minutes ago, vcczar said:

He never wrote anything down for his disciples, which is strange if one is trying to establish a religious movement. His disciples--fishermen and such-- were probably mostly illiterate as well. 

Your point contradicts itself. If his disciples were illiterate, *why would he write things down for them*? Doesn't make any sense.

Having said that, of course a case can be made that he wasn't literate.

Your strongest point above, I think, is he was the son of a carpenter. However, it's not clear exactly what Joseph was. He could have been a day-labourer, or he could have been a master carpenter. The description of Jesus himself similarly runs a gamut in terms of his profession.

But again, Jesus was clearly interested in temple life and Hebrew scriptures, however he made money. This suggests he would have had motivation to learn to read.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 68
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Christ is the Lord and Saviour of all humanity, the Son of God who was preached his Ministry to begin a New Covenant of Universal Salvation and allowed his own sacrifice at the Cross to pay the Wages

I'd take it as, since Jesus was a human incarnation of God's son (in the Christian culture I was raised with, there is some debate on if he is God or God's son) to pay for the sins of us, I'd say it w

User warned. Could be interpreted as calling for acts of violence. Please be more careful with your language.

1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

However, you're ignoring that he also read in the temple. You cannot do this with rudimentary knowledge of letters.

If I remember, this instance only appears once or twice in the four gospels. I don't consider anything likely to have happened unless it is in all four gospels. I think if anything is added in a later gospel, then it is probably an embellishment. Making arguments based on some gospels might work on some people, but it isn't going to convince me. 

3 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Your point contradicts itself. If his disciples were illiterate, *why would he write things down for them*? Doesn't make any sense.

Having said that, of course a case can be made that he wasn't literate.

Your strongest point above, I think, is he was the son of a carpenter. However, it's not clear exactly what Joseph was. He could have been a day-labourer, or he could have been a master carpenter. The description of Jesus himself similarly runs a gamut in terms of his profession.

But again, Jesus was clearly interested in temple life and Hebrew scriptures, however he made money. This suggests he would have had motivation to learn to read.

I said I think they were mostly illiterate, not completely illiterate. I think if they were all illiterate, however, then I think it just strengthens the argument that Jesus was illiterate himself. I like to think of Jesus as someone with some foresight. Somewhere down the road, he would have people in his movement that could read and write. It is very strange to me that Jesus didn't write anything down if he could write. If he couldn't write, it makes sense. My arguments are based off what makes sense to me and what doesn't make sense to me. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

'A lot of scholars' think he was literate. We don't get anywhere with this sort of reference.

However, you're ignoring that he also read in the temple. You cannot do this with rudimentary knowledge of letters.

Your point contradicts itself. If his disciples were illiterate, *why would he write things down for them*? Doesn't make any sense.

Having said that, of course a case can be made that he wasn't literate.

Your strongest point above, I think, is he was the son of a carpenter. However, it's not clear exactly what Joseph was. He could have been a day-labourer, or he could have been a master carpenter. The description of Jesus himself similarly runs a gamut in terms of his profession.

But again, Jesus was clearly interested in temple life and Hebrew scriptures, however he made money. This suggests he would have had motivation to learn to read.

 

I just lost everything I typed in response to this, so here's the short version:

I said I think most of Jesus's followers were illiterate--not all of them. I would also think that a literate genius with foresight would write things down for the followers that could read and those that may come later. It's odd that he never wrote anything down if he were literate. It is not so odd that a carpenter from Nazareth didn't write anything down. If all of his disciples were illiterate it could strengthen the case that Jesus was illiterate as well. 

10 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Can you rephrase? Not following the point.

You said Jesus suggested that helping the poor was voluntary. I asked what you think Jesus would say or do if his 12 disciples decided to opt out of helping the poor since Jesus didn't require it. 

Also going back to Proto-Socialism, you seemed to suggest that I was coming up with my own definition. I am not. Proto-Socialism is going to be any sort of social idea that carries ideas and thoughts later employed by Socialists. For instance, advocacy for the public good and communitarianism. Most things that have been called proto-socialist don't involve government. That begins mainly with Marx. I called Jesus a proto-socialist and not a socialist. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I don't consider anything likely to have happened unless it is in all four gospels.

So if it's in 3/4, not likely to have happened? Why? Seems like an arbitrary threshold. I would say that the historical case is strengthened by having it in multiple texts, but having it in only 1, 2, or 3 doesn't mean it *didn't* happen.

2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

not completely illiterate

Right. Matthew was a tax collector, and almost certainly literate. Not surprisingly, we have the Gospel according to Matthew.

3 minutes ago, vcczar said:

It is very strange to me that Jesus didn't write anything down if he could write.

I think a more accurate claim is we don't have things Jesus wrote down preserved.

So, we have some historical evidence that he was literate. We have various contextual considerations which suggest both ways. In the end, we don't really know. 😀

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, admin_270 said:

So if it's in 3/4, not likely to have happened? Why? Seems like an arbitrary threshold. I would say that the historical case is strengthened by having it in multiple texts, but having it in only 1, 2, or 3 doesn't mean it *didn't* happen.

Right. Matthew was a tax collector, and almost certainly literate. Not surprisingly, we have the Gospel according to Matthew.

I think a more accurate claim is we don't have things Jesus wrote down preserved.

So, we have some historical evidence that he was literate. We have various contextual considerations which suggest both ways. In the end, we don't really know. 😀

I'm more likely to consider something that is 3/4ths recorded, but not any unique embellishments. 

Do we know Matthew actually wrote that gospel? 

Better: We don't have things Jesus wrote down preseverved; therefore, it is possible the rural carpenter Jesus could not read or write. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, vcczar said:

You said Jesus suggested that helping the poor was voluntary. I asked what you think Jesus would say or do if his 12 disciples decided to opt out of helping the poor since Jesus didn't require it. 

Jesus thought giving was very important. However, having the state compulse people to give wouldn't be the right approach, because the giving should come from a change in the heart ('salvation'). See the story of Zaccheus, for example.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, admin_270 said:

Seems unlikely to me that Jesus wasn't literate. Gospel accounts include him reading in the temple and writing on the ground. He was obviously very familiar with Hebrew scriptures.

He was called a rabbi throughout the gospels, a title that required literacy even then.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, pilight said:

He was called a rabbi throughout the gospels, a title that required literacy even then.

Do you have a reference for the claim someone called 'rabbi' at that time would have been required to be literate?

Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, pilight said:

He was called a rabbi throughout the gospels, a title that required literacy even then.

 

19 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Do you have a reference for the claim someone called 'rabbi' at that time would have been required to be literate?

Rabbi didn't become a formal title for a religious teacher until after 70 A.D. It would be informal before then. 

"It was only after 70 A.D. that רַבִּי (rabi) became a formal title for a teacher (see Emil Schürer, The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ [175 B.C.-A.D. 135] [ed. Geza Vermes, Fergus Millar and Matthew Black; Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1979], 2:325-26), and thus cannot correctly be applied to Jesus."

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pilight said:

He was called a rabbi throughout the gospels, a title that required literacy even then.

 

1 hour ago, admin_270 said:

Do you have a reference for the claim someone called 'rabbi' at that time would have been required to be literate?

 

58 minutes ago, vcczar said:

 

Rabbi didn't become a formal title for a religious teacher until after 70 A.D. It would be informal before then. 

"It was only after 70 A.D. that רַבִּי (rabi) became a formal title for a teacher (see Emil Schürer, The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ [175 B.C.-A.D. 135] [ed. Geza Vermes, Fergus Millar and Matthew Black; Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1979], 2:325-26), and thus cannot correctly be applied to Jesus."

He was called a "Priest of the Melchezidach." There were no rabbis back then, as @vcczar pointed out, but Jewish priesthoods still existed, because the Temple of Herod still stood. The Pharisees, who, along with the Roman Proconsul (kind of a British Resident Administrator to a Colonial Protectorate Indigenous Monarchy as used by the Romans) Pontius Pilat, order Christ's execution, were the dominant and politically powerful priesthood in Judea, but not the only one - though the others seem to have been marginalized by that point.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, vcczar said:

I just lost everything I typed in response to this, so here's the short version:

I said I think most of Jesus's followers were illiterate--not all of them. I would also think that a literate genius with foresight would write things down for the followers that could read and those that may come later. It's odd that he never wrote anything down if he were literate. It is not so odd that a carpenter from Nazareth didn't write anything down. If all of his disciples were illiterate it could strengthen the case that Jesus was illiterate as well. 

You said Jesus suggested that helping the poor was voluntary. I asked what you think Jesus would say or do if his 12 disciples decided to opt out of helping the poor since Jesus didn't require it. 

Also going back to Proto-Socialism, you seemed to suggest that I was coming up with my own definition. I am not. Proto-Socialism is going to be any sort of social idea that carries ideas and thoughts later employed by Socialists. For instance, advocacy for the public good and communitarianism. Most things that have been called proto-socialist don't involve government. That begins mainly with Marx. I called Jesus a proto-socialist and not a socialist. 

 

3 hours ago, admin_270 said:

Jesus thought giving was very important. However, having the state compulse people to give wouldn't be the right approach, because the giving should come from a change in the heart ('salvation'). See the story of Zaccheus, for example.

Christ said these acts of charity were among the "good works," His followers were enjoined to do, "without which faith was dead." However, "Caesar," a metonym Christ used for the State was made clear to be very different from the endeavours of the Followers of Christ and their Works on Earth - Christ, Himself, declared a separation of Church and State with the "then render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's," regardless of later Church wrangling and grasping for power over the issue. Christ also made constant cautionary, and even condemnatory, parables, about lives devoted to the desire and amassing of wealth, and the difficulties in the wealthy in Salvation, and that the members of the early, pre-Constantinian Church, lived in communitarian living standards - which shows the myth that many in the Western, especially the U.S., including one or two posters, at least, on these forums, that Capitalism, especially in minimal regulation, is the "only economic system Bible-abiding Christians would follow," is completely bunk and untrue. But, no, it could not be said Christ supports Socialism either, as that would mean He would support strong power for Caesar in "managing the good works," - a support He never showed, either.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really racist cause we don't know his skin tone, maybe white washing by the church, yeah, I'd imagine him to be a lot more tanned to represent more of someone from Turkey than a Catholic white man from Italy like the church originally wanted. The sentiment was racist but the action itself not.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, wolves said:

I'd imagine him to be a lot more tanned to represent more of someone from Turkey than a Catholic white man from Italy

If you didn't know their last names, could you tell that Dr. Oz's ancestors were from Turkey and Judge Napolitano's were from Italy?

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, wolves said:

Not really racist cause we don't know his skin tone, maybe white washing by the church, yeah, I'd imagine him to be a lot more tanned to represent more of someone from Turkey than a Catholic white man from Italy like the church originally wanted. The sentiment was racist but the action itself not.

 

2 hours ago, admin_270 said:

If you didn't know their last names, could you tell that Dr. Oz's ancestors were from Turkey and Judge Napolitano's were from Italy?

Or that Steve Jobs' were from Syria?

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, admin_270 said:

If you didn't know their last names, could you tell that Dr. Oz's ancestors were from Turkey and Judge Napolitano's were from Italy?

Lots of Mexicans are as white as me due to Spaniard genes, thats a good way to represent your point lol.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, wolves said:

Lots of Mexicans are as white as me due to Spaniard genes, thats a good way to represent your point lol.

Mexico, Spain, and about 14-15 other countries could all easily produce the same pool of last names among their majority population. If someone's last name is Sanchez, you don't automatically know which country they, or their most recent ancestors come from, do you? There's a fairly notable number of possible candidate homelands there. In fact, a "Sanchez," could have ancestors living in the territory that is now the U.S. from before the Texas Revolution or Mexican War (sorry, Joe Arpaio, it IS true).

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, wolves said:

Lots of Mexicans are as white as me due to Spaniard genes, thats a good way to represent your point lol.

Right. Spanish, and French, Irish, Polish, Lebanese (Carlos Slim, wealthiest man in Mexico) and so on genes ...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...