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NV Debate: Early Thoughts


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7 minutes ago, Patine said:

I do, however, have a cousin who has served a notably long career in the Canadian Forces, and was even in places like Bosnia and Afghanistan. So, to say NO concept, as an absolute, would be inaccurate. No experience, yes, but that's different than no concept. A concept one can get they're mental picture around.

Also, I want to be very clear. I don't hate veterans at all. I have great respect for them (although those, like you, that try to belittle, diminish, or irrelevate my opinions on broader issues around military conflicts and political and other issues surrounding them in a grander sense annoy me, as you saw when we discussed these kinds of issues earlier). It is the WARMAKERS in government, lobbying groups and corporations pushing for war, and "intelligence" groups I have true bile for. A large majority of whom also have NO personal experience in the military or on a battlefield, and thus this leads to a cavalier attitude toward those in uniform, and a lack of concern for their lives and use, except as part of a machine to accomplish their ulterior political and economic motives. The warmakers should be brought to task, called out for inappropriate, misjudged, deceptive, or criminal motives and ulterior agendas, and even *gasp* tried as criminals where they transgressed law.

My wife is a home hospice nurse.  She has told me about the patients she has cared for in their final moments, and the families that she has comforted in their grief -- but that is not my experience, it is hers.  I can say "Oh, wow, that sounds really hard" with all the sympathy that any person is capable of, but that is not the same as actually being a home hospice nurse.

I only used military experience as an example because it's been a frequent topic between us.  Nearly any experience that you've only heard about but aren't actively enduring would have the same applicability.  

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57 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Buttigieg is the only candidate who is actually experiencing the issues and struggles faced by the common majority who aren't wealthy.

Buttigieg's salary as mayor was $150K as of 2018. He ain't experiencing the issues faced by the common majority.

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2 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

And he made $38,000 in 2019.   

Heh. He has been dining with millionaires and billionaires in wine caves during 2019. I'm pretty sure 2019 has been an OK year for Mayor Pete, and the stress of his student loans isn't getting to him too much.

This isn't 'common majority' problems.

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... and if Mayor Pete has student debt (it's not clear if it's his or not), why? Because he went to Harvard and Oxford Universities. His father was a Professor of Literature at the University of Notre Dame. He received a $75K advance for his 2019 book. Totally 'common majority' sort of life situation there ...

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24 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

And he made $38,000 in 2019

Do you have a source for this? According to Forbes, "2019 is shaping up to be their highest-earning year to date, since Buttigieg got the remaining $45,000 of his book advance, and royalties from the bestseller, which was published in February, have started to flow."

#5a52ce2f3dd3https://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewithorn/2019/06/07/how-much-is-pete-buttigieg-worth/#5a52ce2f3dd3

Turns out that before Pete entered politics, he was making $150K as a consultant for McKinsey & Company ...

So we have son of Professor of Literature at Notre Dame -> Harvard -> Rhodes Scholar -> Oxford -> 150K at McKinsey -> 150K as Mayor -> $75K book advance -> wining and dining millionaires and billionaires while becoming a national figure = 'common majority' sort of problems, totally.

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41 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Do you have a source for this? According to Forbes, "2019 is shaping up to be their highest-earning year to date, since Buttigieg got the remaining $45,000 of his book advance, and royalties from the bestseller, which was published in February, have started to flow."

#5a52ce2f3dd3https://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewithorn/2019/06/07/how-much-is-pete-buttigieg-worth/#5a52ce2f3dd3

Turns out that before Pete entered politics, he was making $150K as a consultant for McKinsey & Company ...

So we have son of Professor of Literature at Notre Dame -> Harvard -> Rhodes Scholar -> Oxford -> 150K at McKinsey -> 150K as Mayor -> $75K book advance -> wining and dining millionaires and billionaires while becoming a national figure = 'common majority' sort of problems, totally.

I was actually citing the same article, but from memory so I mixed up the years.  And it was $34,000 that I was thinking of, not the $38,000 I stated.  Not sure why you left out the 34k when you were referencing the exact same article.

Regardless, even at his peak year of $150k (which was his mayor salary, and he's no longer the mayor), he was still infinitely closer to middle class than the millionaires and billionaires he's competing against.

Also, I don't know how much you think Professors make.  

Here's a picture of Pete playing Nintendo with his dad.  Does this look like the home of a wealthy family?Nintendo.thumb.jpg.9ed1d268023578dbbdd47c8999b9ebd0.jpg
 

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3 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Not sure why you left out the 34k when you were referencing the exact same article.

Left out the 34K year from 10 years ago when he left his cushy job with McKinsey to run for statewide office? Because ... you claimed it was 2019!

4 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

he was still infinitely closer to middle class than the millionaires and billionaires he's competing against

Oh ya, he's closer for sure. He's also a lot younger. When he's in his 70s he will also probably be a millionaire - he's on that trajectory, anyway.

5 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

I don't know how much you think Professors make

According to this site

https://www.paysa.com/salaries/university-of-notre-dame--professor

the salary of a Professor at Notre Dame on average is >$100K. Again, not a 'common majority' sort of position.

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1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

Oh ya, he's closer for sure. He's also a lot younger. When he's in his 70s he will also probably be a millionaire - he's on that trajectory, anyway.

No doubt.  He's smart and motivated, I'm sure he'll be equally out of touch in 35 years as Bernie, Warren, and the rest are now.  ;c)

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Just now, Actinguy said:

you brought up his childhood, but 10 years ago when he was actually an adult is irrelevant

Somebody who's father is Professor at one of the most prestigious universities in the States isn't starting in a 'common majority' sort of situation.

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1 minute ago, Actinguy said:

I mean, you brought up his childhood, but 10 years ago when he was actually an adult is irrelevant?  

Have you ever heard of the cliché and trope term "rags to riches." It does happen every now and then. And such people have a bad habit of losing touch with, and empathy for, their roots. Jennifer Lopez' famous song, "Jenny From the Block," was a lambasted example of this, and attempting to claim wealth and success hadn't changed one.

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But ya, Mayor Pete had a tight couple of years when he ... voluntarily left a $150K job to run for state office! But he managed to land on his feet, promptly earning >$100K as Mayor.

A 20-something year old voluntarily leaving a 6 figure job to run for state office and then a couple years later starting another 6 figure job isn't 'common majority'. Not even close.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

Have you ever heard of the cliché and trope term "rags to riches." It does happen every now and then. And such people have a bad habit of losing touch with, and empathy for, their roots. Jennifer Lopez' famous song, "Jenny From the Block," was a lambasted example of this, and attempting to claim wealth and success hadn't changed one.

Rags to riches, absolutely.  That's exactly what I'm talking about.  Every single candidate on that stage is, at BEST, a rags to riches story.  (Some were riches all along) -- except Pete.

Rags to networth of $100,000 when you have two mortgages on a fixer-upper house and hundreds of thousands of dollars in college debts doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

You guys are being ridiculous.

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3 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

But ya, Mayor Pete had a tight couple of years when he ... voluntarily left a $150K job to run for state office! But he managed to land on his feet, promptly earning >$100K as Mayor.

A 20-something year old voluntarily leaving a 6 figure job to run for state office and then a couple years later starting another 6 figure job isn't 'common majority'. Not even close.

You keep saying common majority.  I don't know who you are quoting.  I said middle class, which networth of $100,000 absolutely is.  And is a hell of a lot closer to even being the poorest people, than being a millionaire/billionaire is.

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2 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Rags to riches, absolutely.  That's exactly what I'm talking about.  Every single candidate on that stage is, at BEST, a rags to riches story.  (Some were riches all along) -- except Pete.

Rags to networth of $100,000 when you have two mortgages on a fixer-upper house and hundreds of thousands of dollars in college debts doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

You guys are being ridiculous.

I don't make even nearly half of $100 000 (converted to US$) every year. And a Mayor, like many elected officials, almost certainly pays no income tax and has a notable number of expenses covered.

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1 minute ago, Actinguy said:

You keep saying common majority.  I don't know who you are quoting.  I said middle class, which networth of $100,000 absolutely is.  And is a hell of a lot closer to even being the poorest people, than being a millionaire/billionaire is.

The problem is, as I've been saying, the millionaires and billionaires are indeed a very small percentage of the American population. BUT, they have a hugely, disproportionate amount of power and influence over elections and government policy that greatly exaggerates their numbers, in terms of influence, de facto. This is why these millionaires and billionaires are really trying to edge Sanders and Warren out of contention - because they're the least likely to play ball with that idea. Most of the other Democratic candidates, and certainly Trump, have some wealthy individuals or other who could whisper agendas in their ears they'd like to hear - with a handful of money not far away.

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6 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

I'm quoting *you* @Actinguy!

"Buttigieg is the only candidate who is actually experiencing the issues and struggles faced by the common majority who aren't wealthy."

Ha!  I deny this outrageous accusation.  I was hacked by Russians!  ;c)

But seriously -- he's got hundreds of thousands of dollars in college debt and is paying two mortgages on a fixer-upper house.  That is way closer to "the common majority" than owning three houses is.

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1 minute ago, Actinguy said:

But seriously -- he's got hundreds of thousands of dollars in college debt and is paying two mortgages on a fixer-upper house.  That is way closer to "the common majority" than owning three houses is.

Yes, I agree he's closer to the common majority than the others on that stage, but if you control for age he's doing quite well.

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45 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

I was actually citing the same article, but from memory so I mixed up the years.  And it was $34,000 that I was thinking of, not the $38,000 I stated.  Not sure why you left out the 34k when you were referencing the exact same article.

Regardless, even at his peak year of $150k (which was his mayor salary, and he's no longer the mayor), he was still infinitely closer to middle class than the millionaires and billionaires he's competing against.

Also, I don't know how much you think Professors make.  

Here's a picture of Pete playing Nintendo with his dad.  Does this look like the home of a wealthy family?Nintendo.thumb.jpg.9ed1d268023578dbbdd47c8999b9ebd0.jpg
 

This reminds me a lot of the house I used to visit almost daily on my street growing up. My friend's dad was a professor of archaeology at SMU in Dallas. I lived two blocks from campus. Their house was a small one-story two-bedroom. My friend and his brother shared a room. The house showed no signs of wealth, except for maybe some artifacts from Peru. However, the housing costs were likely quite high since this was the wealthiest part of Dallas. Our street had smaller houses than the norm for the neighborhood. My house was probably in the worst shape of them all, even though it was slightly larger than my friend's house.  There were at least four professors living on my street. 

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