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Some issues still with default 2020 campaign


servo75
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I'm sorry @admin_270 but I downloaded the most recent update for President Infinity, and there are still some problems with the 2020 campaign.

For starters, with the game itself, how is it that after all these years we still can't do a simple thing like choose our save directory manually? But back to the topic - I think the campaigns are not quite as left-slanted as they used to be but I'm going to try to stick to factual stuff here as much as I can...

1. The "Economy" issue. First, "tariffs" don't belong on the right side. The economy issue is free market vs. socialism. Tariffs are sort of an indirect government control on prices but if you're going to have tariffs in an issue it should be its OWN issue separate from economy like "Trade Policy". Also the left positions are... well they're not really positions at all, just declarative statements about how "Trump and the 1% are ruining everything..." Now wherever you stand on this issue, shouldn't the issue positions be actual policy statements? I am NOT making an ideological judgement here, I understand a genuine left wing position is "a recession is on the way, the 1% are evil blah blah blah" but nowhere is there an actual policy statement. As a left-wing economic candidate, what are you going to tell your supporters, campaign ads, etc. that you're going to DO? That's my main point.

2. There are multiple errors in both party primaries - wrong dates, wrong numbers of delegates, I had to go to the DNC website and actually correct the delegate numbers, primary dates, etc. I mean come on, these are glaring factual errors. Do some research (or better yet hire me to do it :))

3. Speaking of primaries... The Libertarians actually have very few primaries. Their convention is over Memorial Day Weekend and the whole process is like one national caucus with invited delegates picking the candidates. The few primaries that exist are little more than straw polls - like where the major parties were 150 years ago. Unfortunately there's really no mechanism in the game to handle this, so to make my version, I move ALL the primary dates to May 21 (1st day of the convention) and change to closed caucus.

3a. Speaking of which, does the game actually handle primaries and caucuses differently under the hood? And why aren't superdelegates implemented? And why, when a candidate is eliminated in primary voting, do ALL their supporters immediately go to one candidate? As much as I'd like something like an instant runoff, both in-game and real life, real brokered conventions don't work like that. At one time, 2/3 majorities were required and some conventions went to 100+ rounds before picking a winner. The convention process needs to be fleshed out a lot more. I was thinking about this more and more when considering the shit-show that we're going to almost certainly see in Milwaukee in July. But I digress (as I'm wont to do)...

A few more minor things...

4. Why are there primary candidates like former Presidents Obama and Bush Jr. who already served 2 terms? I do assume everyone here has heard of the 22nd Amendment, right? And why does California have tons of celebrity endorsers? Really? We saw in 2016 being endorsed by a pop star has about as much weight as being endorsed by your pet lizard.

5. There are some endorsements that don't make sense. Shouldn't American Federation of Teachers be an education issue endorsement? Sheriff Joe should be immigration, not general.

6. Why are polls set to 0 for all Libertarian primaries? Of course as I mentioned those primaries barely count in real life, but even on the state level they were all 0 or 1%. I ALWAYS use polls in primaries (when you have little else to go on) as opposed to the general where first of all, you have the region percentages, and the polls in general elections carry way too much weight. For example if you put a national poll that says Party A 51%, B 59% then ALL states automatically go to those values, not taking the state makeups into account at all!  First two times I ran simulations, Robert Francis O'Rourke won the Dem primary easily. Hello, he dropped out, remember? The primary results continue to be very... well I don't have a crystal ball to say unrealistic, but in the last update John Delaney won most of them. Maybe this is an issue with how the game predicts voter behavior? I take it that "centrists" determine the vote in both parties which would be nice in real life, but doesn't happen, and I think the game should reflect that. Also when I run simulations (as observer) I notice that HUGE numbers of primary candidates drop out very early on unless I specifically check off "stays in until convention." Incidentally, is there any functional difference between start values of "On - Not Seeking" and "Off"?

 

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1 hour ago, servo75 said:

I'm sorry @admin_270 but I downloaded the most recent update for President Infinity, and there are still some problems with the 2020 campaign.

For starters, with the game itself, how is it that after all these years we still can't do a simple thing like choose our save directory manually? But back to the topic - I think the campaigns are not quite as left-slanted as they used to be but I'm going to try to stick to factual stuff here as much as I can...

1. The "Economy" issue. First, "tariffs" don't belong on the right side. The economy issue is free market vs. socialism. Tariffs are sort of an indirect government control on prices but if you're going to have tariffs in an issue it should be its OWN issue separate from economy like "Trade Policy". Also the left positions are... well they're not really positions at all, just declarative statements about how "Trump and the 1% are ruining everything..." Now wherever you stand on this issue, shouldn't the issue positions be actual policy statements? I am NOT making an ideological judgement here, I understand a genuine left wing position is "a recession is on the way, the 1% are evil blah blah blah" but nowhere is there an actual policy statement. As a left-wing economic candidate, what are you going to tell your supporters, campaign ads, etc. that you're going to DO? That's my main point.

2. There are multiple errors in both party primaries - wrong dates, wrong numbers of delegates, I had to go to the DNC website and actually correct the delegate numbers, primary dates, etc. I mean come on, these are glaring factual errors. Do some research (or better yet hire me to do it :))

3. Speaking of primaries... The Libertarians actually have very few primaries. Their convention is over Memorial Day Weekend and the whole process is like one national caucus with invited delegates picking the candidates. The few primaries that exist are little more than straw polls - like where the major parties were 150 years ago. Unfortunately there's really no mechanism in the game to handle this, so to make my version, I move ALL the primary dates to May 21 (1st day of the convention) and change to closed caucus.

3a. Speaking of which, does the game actually handle primaries and caucuses differently under the hood? And why aren't superdelegates implemented? And why, when a candidate is eliminated in primary voting, do ALL their supporters immediately go to one candidate? As much as I'd like something like an instant runoff, both in-game and real life, real brokered conventions don't work like that. At one time, 2/3 majorities were required and some conventions went to 100+ rounds before picking a winner. The convention process needs to be fleshed out a lot more. I was thinking about this more and more when considering the shit-show that we're going to almost certainly see in Milwaukee in July. But I digress (as I'm wont to do)...

A few more minor things...

4. Why are there primary candidates like former Presidents Obama and Bush Jr. who already served 2 terms? I do assume everyone here has heard of the 22nd Amendment, right? And why does California have tons of celebrity endorsers? Really? We saw in 2016 being endorsed by a pop star has about as much weight as being endorsed by your pet lizard.

5. There are some endorsements that don't make sense. Shouldn't American Federation of Teachers be an education issue endorsement? Sheriff Joe should be immigration, not general.

6. Why are polls set to 0 for all Libertarian primaries? Of course as I mentioned those primaries barely count in real life, but even on the state level they were all 0 or 1%. I ALWAYS use polls in primaries (when you have little else to go on) as opposed to the general where first of all, you have the region percentages, and the polls in general elections carry way too much weight. For example if you put a national poll that says Party A 51%, B 59% then ALL states automatically go to those values, not taking the state makeups into account at all!  First two times I ran simulations, Robert Francis O'Rourke won the Dem primary easily. Hello, he dropped out, remember? The primary results continue to be very... well I don't have a crystal ball to say unrealistic, but in the last update John Delaney won most of them. Maybe this is an issue with how the game predicts voter behavior? I take it that "centrists" determine the vote in both parties which would be nice in real life, but doesn't happen, and I think the game should reflect that. Also when I run simulations (as observer) I notice that HUGE numbers of primary candidates drop out very early on unless I specifically check off "stays in until convention." Incidentally, is there any functional difference between start values of "On - Not Seeking" and "Off"?

 

4.Obama and Bush must be "what-if" candidates. You know, what if the 22nd amendment did not exist.

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16 hours ago, Jinsu Kim said:

4.Obama and Bush must be "what-if" candidates. You know, what if the 22nd amendment did not exist.

Perhaps.

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Another thing that doesn't make sense is the "Electoral Reform" issue. Why is the far right position calling for a monarchy? That's totally a non-sequitur. Suggestion:

"Clean out voter rolls. End early and mail in votes. 2 forms of ID to vote. Bring the Electoral College to the states too."

That's only a suggestion, but the bottom line is monarchy just doesn't make sense anywhere on electoral reform scale. And by the way, what does it mean by "new" monarchy? We've never had a monarchy in the United States (well, not officially, some POTUS have acted like they're king but we won't go there :))

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1 hour ago, servo75 said:

Another thing that doesn't make sense is the "Electoral Reform" issue. Why is the far right position calling for a monarchy? That's totally a non-sequitur. Suggestion:

"Clean out voter rolls. End early and mail in votes. 2 forms of ID to vote. Bring the Electoral College to the states too."

That's only a suggestion, but the bottom line is monarchy just doesn't make sense anywhere on electoral reform scale. And by the way, what does it mean by "new" monarchy? We've never had a monarchy in the United States (well, not officially, some POTUS have acted like they're king but we won't go there :))

Although you are correct, that the only "Monarchial" political movements in the U.S. tend to be small political parody groups, and serious ones, the fact is that Monarchialism is a right-wing position on the whole grand Political Spectrum. So are Theocracy, Fascism, Plutocracy, and quite a few other "wonderful" types of government, along with Libertarianism and Conservative Republicanism/Constitutional Electoral System. The left-wing is also highly varied and quite a spread. Again, I encourage you to engage in more robust, expansive, and global studies of political ideologies and stances - especially before speaking in a way that makes you look like a fool, as you often do.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Monarchialism is a right-wing position on the whole grand Political Spectrum.

Not in the United States, as far as I've ever seen. If you have examples of ANY U.S. politician putting monarchy on their political platform then please show me.

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5 minutes ago, servo75 said:

Not in the United States, as far as I've ever seen. If you have examples of ANY U.S. politician putting monarchy on their political platform then please show me.

I admitted at the start of my post (you strategically crop my posts like a disingenuous journalist or press secretary) that it was usually the domain of parody political candidates (those running alongside the likes of Virmen Supreme) who claim such a platform, but the since letter shortly after Independence suggesting inviting a Prussian Prince to be King of America might be an idea to mull over, it hasn't been a thing. However, my expansions were about the Political Spectrum as a whole. And, in this Internet era, socio-political ideas are creeping between nations, especially among certain younger groups more than ever before. Hence why a Green Party of the United State and a Pirate Party USA formally exist whose platforms differ little from their European counterparts. National borders being ideological borders is a dying phenomenon.

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If all you're going to do is insult me, talk to the hand, I don't have the time or inclination to stoop to your level. I brought up a perfectly reasonable discussion point.

I'm sure there were monarchists in the early U.S. Congress. This is the 2020 Presidential Campaign in the United States of America, not 1820.

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22 minutes ago, servo75 said:

If all you're going to do is insult me, talk to the hand, I don't have the time or inclination to stoop to your level. I brought up a perfectly reasonable discussion point.

I'm sure there were monarchists in the early U.S. Congress. This is the 2020 Presidential Campaign in the United States of America, not 1820.

I think the biggest thing that I, and a few others, in dealing with you is that your a strict parochial doctrinaire, and it's hard to discuss any matters with such a person productively unless you also agree with a good part of their worldview. Otherwise, such people are intractable and unwilling to concede a single point, and actively believe (as you have shown) that real education (and sanctioned stereotypes and propaganda) out the fields of strict parochial doctrine are beneath such people, disloyal, or, secretly, inspire fear that the truth of these things will break the fragile illusions such people live under. It's unfortunate such people still exist in great numbers in the Information Age.

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@Patine if all you're going to do is follow me from post to post, reflexively insulting everything I say just to try to bait me, and trying to intimidate me out of this forum, it's not going to work. I'm done trying to reason with you or understand you. I don't want to block you but if you force my hand, I will. I argue hard and when I know I'm right I say it. If you don't like that, then tough shit. I will continue to have productive and even heated debates and discussion with the rest of the members here and I will not let you ruin it for me. I'm far too busy as it is to devote daily time to this forum, and arguing with you is fruitless, pointless, and an unnecessary stressor for me. I simply won't allow it any more, but I made up my mind I will return and simply ignore you.

And I am NOT going away.

If you're ever willing to disagree with me and have a mature discussion, let me know. Until then I wish you a good life. Don't bother responding to this, I won't read it.

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On 2/16/2020 at 9:33 PM, servo75 said:

how is it that after all these years we still can't do a simple thing like choose our save directory manually

Thanks for this feedback - you should be able to choose a different folder to save a game to. Save game > navigate to your desired folder in the pop up screen.

1. Typically, the spectrum in a game will be defined by the polity the campaign is about.

2. Thanks for this - if you bring the specific ones to my attention, they will be fixed for the next update.

3. Yes, and we'll focus more on the Libertarian party when we get closer to summer.

3a. Yes, off hand I believe foot soldiers matter more in caucuses. Superdelegates aren't implemented because they are difficult to model. To simplify things.

4. Because it might be fun to play a what-if where that amendment has been repealed.

5. Noted - thanks for this.

6. Sorry, I can't parse the first part of this question. Please reformulate. Is Beto winning the primaries unrealistic? It didn't seem so a few months ago to many people.

 

 

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6 hours ago, admin_270 said:

Thanks for this feedback - you should be able to choose a different folder to save a game to. Save game > navigate to your desired folder in the pop up screen.

O

1. Typically, the spectrum in a game will be defined by the polity the campaign is about.

2. Thanks for this - if you bring the specific ones to my attention, they will be fixed for the next update.

3. Yes, and we'll focus more on the Libertarian party when we get closer to summer.

3a. Yes, off hand I believe foot soldiers matter more in caucuses. Superdelegates aren't implemented because they are difficult to model. To simplify things.

4. Because it might be fun to play a what-if where that amendment has been repealed.

5. Noted - thanks for this.

6. Sorry, I can't parse the first part of this question. Please reformulate. Is Beto winning the primaries unrealistic? It didn't seem so a few months ago to many people.

 

 

Sorry, what I meant by "save game" I should have said "save user scenarios", like it goes in Documents and I can't change that.

For the primary totals, I have to double check those because I may have put total delegates instead of just pledged delegates, which would make sense if we're not using superdelegates.

Beto winning isn't unrealistic, I guess I'm looking at it since he's out of the race now, but for historical perspective... it just seemed he was winning with huge majorities most of the time (and one time Delaney ran away with it by Super Tuesday) which made me wonder if there was an issue with the engine or if I was setting up polls wrong. I'm always looking at this from the perspective of simulating reality as much as possible, even though we're still going through the campaign right now.

 

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11 hours ago, servo75 said:

Sorry, what I meant by "save game" I should have said "save user scenarios", like it goes in Documents and I can't change that.

Ok, this is because the game requires a standardized place to find user campaigns. It becomes tricky if the game allows user campaigns outside of the standard folder.

If for some reason you want to copy a campaign to another folder, you can easily do that (with the 'Export' button).

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