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1 minute ago, Actinguy said:

I don’t really know what you’re talking about, but to be clear: I am not trying to be flippant.  There is truly nothing that ANY candidate has proposed, no matter how implausible, that excites me HALF as much as the prospect of stopping Trump does.

 

That truly is everything, to me.  

 

And so I guess I find it just as infuriating when people claim they won’t vote for certain democrats (if those dems become the nominee) as the same people feel when I don’t...join them in agreeing to not back certain democrats?  I guess?  I struggle to find the right analogy.  But I also struggle to understand how the far left plans to achieve ANYTHING until Trump is gone.  

How is removing Trump not a unifying goal for the entire party?

We can disagree about what might come after, and that’s okay.  But what comes after is NOTHING, unless we remove Trump.  

I’ll be voting for any democrat who wins the nomination, with a smile on my face, when the day comes.  I have my preference on who my favorite candidate is, and other have theirs, and that’s fine.  That’s part of the process, the whole point of having a primary.  I don’t get annoyed when we disagree on who the best Democrat candidate is.  I get annoyed but people pretend there are candidates who are equivalent to or worse than trump.

And that is just too myopic and monomaniacal of a vision for me to get staunchly behind. Trump is not a big problem, or the big issue. He's an opportunist who took advantage of the REAL big problems and issues, which none of those candidates are addressing. Trump is a symptom of bigger disease - he is not the disease. If the disease continues to be ignored, the symptoms will keep appearing, and will get worse, and more frequent. That is the big flaw in your view, there.

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22 minutes ago, Patine said:

And that is just too myopic and monomaniacal of a vision for me to get staunchly behind. Trump is not a big problem, or the big issue. He's an opportunist who took advantage of the REAL big problems and issues, which none of those candidates are addressing. Trump is a symptom of bigger disease - he is not the disease. If the disease continues to be ignored, the symptoms will keep appearing, and will get worse, and more frequent. That is the big flaw in your view, there.

Fine.  Great.  But what IS the solution, then?  Something we can actually do?

Because I’m doing the best that I can within the bounds of reality.

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1 minute ago, Actinguy said:

Fine.  Great.  But what IS the solution, then?  Something we can actually do?

Because I’m doing the best that I can within the bounds of reality.

It will quickly come to the point that the American "system" and working within it will become untenable. Although I'm not advocating revolution (given the types, on both the Far-Right and Far-Left, who, while still thankfully a small minority, are chomping at the bit for violent, are absolutely frightening people), a major but decisive show of popular disapproval of both parties, their machines, and their whole corrupt system is what would really be needed. The peaceful protests that brought down the Warsaw Pact governments in 1989-1992, the "Clean Hands" legislative revolt in Italy in the '90's, or even the Arab Spring (in it's more successful, in the short-term, episodes, like Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, or Yemen, as opposed to, infamously Syria, Libya, or Bahrain), or the "Quit India" movement in the British Raj in 1930's. Eventually, a stand will have to taken, when the lies, abuses of power, taking for granted of the people's votes and support, complete lack of accountability, transparency, and due process on a government level, rampant corruption (as long as you're very wealthy and well-connected, as opposed to the petty corruption level of many Third World countries), endless wars on utterly false premises, inability or unwillingness to deal with, or even opportunistically playing the growing socio-political divide in the nation, and the complete contempt shown for criticism and concerns shown by citizens that are not "easy" issues to handle and make good policy showpieces, of both major parties and endless Administrations and lawmakers become to much maintain a façade of legitimacy around, and they have must be shown the door, and replaced with those who will one of the most important titles of office that all such officials hold - PUBLIC SERVANT - much more seriously. That, in the long term, will likely need to be done if the United States is to be spared a very dark fate indeed.

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57 minutes ago, Patine said:

It will quickly come to the point that the American "system" and working within it will become untenable. Although I'm not advocating revolution (given the types, on both the Far-Right and Far-Left, who, while still thankfully a small minority, are chomping at the bit for violent, are absolutely frightening people), a major but decisive show of popular disapproval of both parties, their machines, and their whole corrupt system is what would really be needed. The peaceful protests that brought down the Warsaw Pact governments in 1989-1992, the "Clean Hands" legislative revolt in Italy in the '90's, or even the Arab Spring (in it's more successful, in the short-term, episodes, like Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, or Yemen, as opposed to, infamously Syria, Libya, or Bahrain), or the "Quit India" movement in the British Raj in 1930's. Eventually, a stand will have to taken, when the lies, abuses of power, taking for granted of the people's votes and support, complete lack of accountability, transparency, and due process on a government level, rampant corruption (as long as you're very wealthy and well-connected, as opposed to the petty corruption level of many Third World countries), endless wars on utterly false premises, inability or unwillingness to deal with, or even opportunistically playing the growing socio-political divide in the nation, and the complete contempt shown for criticism and concerns shown by citizens that are not "easy" issues to handle and make good policy showpieces, of both major parties and endless Administrations and lawmakers become to much maintain a façade of legitimacy around, and they have must be shown the door, and replaced with those who will one of the most important titles of office that all such officials hold - PUBLIC SERVANT - much more seriously. That, in the long term, will likely need to be done if the United States is to be spared a very dark fate indeed.

Sure, great, fine.  But we're still not talking about what I, or any other person, can do today.  Because you don't have any actual ideas -- you just denounce taking part in the only system available, without offering a different system in its place.  

So until someone comes along with a better idea that can actually succeed, I'll be voting in the primary for the Democrat I believe can actually stop Trump -- and for whoever the last Democrat is left standing in the General election, regardless of who that is.  Will it solve 100% of the world's problems over night?  Absolutely not.  But it WILL solve at least some of them, and that's a better outcome than anyone else is offering here.

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The sky is falling the sky is falling.  Bleh...heard it all before.  

Reality is America might be as healthy as ever.  The fact that the biggest issues are internal equality, and too many people who want to be American, just shows how little energy our country needs to commit to outside issues/pressures.  

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15 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Sure, great, fine.  But we're still not talking about what I, or any other person, can do today.  Because you don't have any actual ideas -- you just denounce taking part in the only system available, without offering a different system in its place.  

So until someone comes along with a better idea that can actually succeed, I'll be voting in the primary for the Democrat I believe can actually stop Trump -- and for whoever the last Democrat is left standing in the General election, regardless of who that is.  Will it solve 100% of the world's problems over night?  Absolutely not.  But it WILL solve at least some of them, and that's a better outcome than anyone else is offering here.

You just assume I have no ideas. I actually do. But none of the candidates running are going to be conducive with my ideas, and all of them antagonistic, partially or wholly, toward them. Don't you understand that. I do definitely have ideas for reforms and improvements across the board - my own whole ideology, I've assembled over my life from various sources and my own innovation and extrapolation. But that's mutually exclusive with you're demand for me to select a current candidate that I would fully "back." And saying I would not back any candidate fully, and criticizing the electoral system and the two parties as meaning I have "no ideas at all, only tearing down other people," is disingenuous, because you're weren't asking for my actual ideas in the first place - you were asking me to "pick a poison" and think it was an acceptable viewpoint.

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8 minutes ago, HonestAbe said:

The sky is falling the sky is falling.  Bleh...heard it all before.  

Reality is America might be as healthy as ever.  The fact that the biggest issues are internal equality, and too many people who want to be American, just shows how little energy our country needs to commit to outside issues/pressures.  

No, the United States is not as healthy as you think it is. Like the metaphor of the great oak, rotting within, even though to all appearances it seems as strong, sturdy, and vital as it was in it's prime.

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21 minutes ago, Patine said:

You just assume I have no ideas. I actually do. But none of the candidates running are going to be conducive with my ideas, and all of them antagonistic, partially or wholly, toward them. Don't you understand that. I do definitely have ideas for reforms and improvements across the board - my own whole ideology, I've assembled over my life from various sources and my own innovation and extrapolation. But that's mutually exclusive with you're demand for me to select a current candidate that I would fully "back." And saying I would not back any candidate fully, and criticizing the electoral system and the two parties as meaning I have "no ideas at all, only tearing down other people," is disingenuous, because you're weren't asking for my actual ideas in the first place - you were asking me to "pick a poison" and think it was an acceptable viewpoint.

I don't doubt that you have...goals?  Dreams?  A vision?

You just don't propose any first steps to achieving it, while criticizing those who actually are trying to take steps.

You criticize everyone for not doing enough, while you are doing nothing.

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Just now, Actinguy said:

I don't doubt that you have...goals?  Dreams?  A vision?

You just don't propose any first steps to achieving it, while criticizing those who actually are trying to take steps.

Frankly, the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election, as it's conducted, and as it's unfairly weighted, does not present such opportunities at all, as far as I'm concerned. No realistic ones. That's what it comes down to.

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Just now, Patine said:

Frankly, the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election, as it's conducted, and as it's unfairly weighted, does not present such opportunities at all, as far as I'm concerned. No realistic ones. That's what it comes down to.

Okay, so you're offering nothing.  I appreciate at least that you admit it.  For the rest of us, let's get back on track with trying to actually achieve something.

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Just now, Actinguy said:

Okay, so you're offering nothing.  I appreciate at least that you admit it.  For the rest of us, let's get back on track with trying to actually achieve something.

I'm not offering nothing. I'm offering food for thought for others here who have strong, preconceived notions and expectations. That's actually not nothing. It can be quite valuable if actually thought about. It's only nothing if summarily ignored without a second thought - perhaps, in the long-term, even a negative value. YOU are making it nothing to YOURSELF - it is not inherently nothing.

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

I'm not offering nothing. I'm offering food for thought for others here who have strong, preconceived notions and expectations. That's actually not nothing. It can be quite valuable if actually thought about. It's only nothing if summarily ignored without a second thought - perhaps, in the long-term, even a negative value. YOU are making it nothing to YOURSELF - it is not inherently nothing.

You offer a magical land with no way to actually get there.  Your thoughts are not actually thought out.

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3 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Okay, so you're offering nothing.  I appreciate at least that you admit it.  For the rest of us, let's get back on track with trying to actually achieve something.

No he's saying that America's problems run deeper than just President Syphilis, and that getting rid of Trump won't actually help in the long run, you're just going to get someone even worse in 2024. If you Democrats nominate someone like Joe Biden, or Copmala Harris, or Pete Buttigieg, you deserve to lose, if you refuse to learn that Obama/Clinton style Liberalism can't beat Trump after Hillary ate shit in 2016, you deserve four more years of the dotard. But go ahead and tell me that I'm being utopian because I oppose replacing  one authoritarian shitheel with another.

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2 minutes ago, WVProgressive said:

No he's saying that America's problems run deeper than just President Syphilis, and that getting rid of Trump won't actually help in the long run, you're just going to get someone even worse in 2024. If you Democrats nominate someone like Joe Biden, or Copmala Harris, or Pete Buttigieg, you deserve to lose, if you refuse to learn that Obama/Clinton style Liberalism can't beat Trump after Hillary ate shit in 2016, you deserve four more years of the dotard. But go ahead and tell me that I'm being utopian because I oppose replacing  one authoritarian shitheel with another.

You're being utopian because you oppose replacing  one authoritarian shitheel with another.

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1 hour ago, Actinguy said:

You're being utopian because you oppose replacing  one authoritarian shitheel with another.

There's that trademark arrogance again. Have fun blaming everything and everyone besides the horrible system and blatant corruption in both parties that screw over candidates that actually represent the people, when the Democrats lose to Donnie tiny hands again. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is insanity and that's what it seems like is happening again. 

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8 hours ago, Dr. Insano said:

There's that trademark arrogance again. Have fun blaming everything and everyone besides the horrible system and blatant corruption in both parties that screw over candidates that actually represent the people, when the Democrats lose to Donnie tiny hands again. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is insanity and that's what it seems like is happening again. 

Who is being screwed over this time?  

Which candidate is being denied their fair shake when super delegates influence has been revoked and even candidates averaging less than one percent in the polls are given a podium in the most watched Democrat debates of all time?

This is just paranoia, and you “blaming everything and everyone”, rather than acknowledging that the things you believe are not broadly accepted by others.  

But that’s okay — the primary process is your candidates’ opportunity to inform and persuade the public otherwise...and they are indeed getting a more than fair chance to do so.

Yet you denounce the only process that could actually give you what you want.

 

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