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28 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

It is used to designate and out-group of people against our values like Freedom of speech which is slowly being abolished being people are too sensitive.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-free-speech-criticize-muhammad-echr-ruled/574174/

I don't recall "freedom of speech" being the target of the original people it was applied to when first used on record - the Anarchists and the Fenians of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In fact, state censorship was one of the big weapons levied against these first bearers of the label, even in the United States. Also, you seem under the illusion, as so many are nowadays, that the phenomenon that's labeled "terrorism" is somehow a product of Islamic religion and culture, and innovation of their, almost exclusively restricted to them, and, even worse, is actually a proper practice of their religious beliefs, and NOT a gross corruption, perversion, distortion, and warping of them for the ulterior motives and evil ends of mortal, human "religious" leaders, like most of Roman Catholic history, the Evangelical Mega-Churches, "Christian" Dominionism, Fundamentalism, and Nationalism, the Prosperity Gospel, the LDS and Seventh-Day Adventist Movements, the Russian Orthodox Church, and others are among Christianity.

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8 minutes ago, Patine said:

I don't recall "freedom of speech" being the target of the original people it was applied to when first used on record - the Anarchists and the Fenians of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In fact, state censorship was one of the big weapons levied against these first bearers of the label, even in the United States. Also, you seem under the illusion, as so many are nowadays, that the phenomenon that's labeled "terrorism" is somehow a product of Islamic religion and culture, and innovation of their, almost exclusively restricted to them, and, even worse, is actually a proper practice of their religious beliefs, and NOT a gross corruption, perversion, distortion, and warping of them for the ulterior motives and evil ends of mortal, human "religious" leaders, like most of Roman Catholic history, the Evangelical Mega-Churches, "Christian" Dominionism, Fundamentalism, and Nationalism, the Prosperity Gospel, the LDS and Seventh-Day Adventist Movements, the Russian Orthodox Church, and others are among Christianity.

There is very much a basis for terrorism in Islam. Just see here.(Please read in full before responding.)

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2 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

There is very much a basis for terrorism in Islam. Just see here.(Please read in full before responding.)

This is based on a lot of misunderstandings of the text of the Quran and it's historical context exploited by both radical "Islamist" leaders to evil ends, and as justification for arbitrary, extreme, indiscrimanatory overkill war crimes and atrocities by mostly Christian-, Jewish-, and Hindu-majority nations. First, the 40+ virgins in heaven after dying killing infidels is highly misrepresented. The actual context is to die such fighting effective infidel COMBANTANTS (like Crusaders, in the Middle Ages, for example) who are invading lands ruled by Islamic rulers and under Islamic law in DEFENSE of their homeland. Seeking out and killing infidel civilians in their own lands and killing them in cowardly suicide is actually not counted, and, in fact, by other verse, would be considered despicable. Also, forced conversion was not originally a big thing, as whole communities of non-Moslems who also followed "the Book" - like Christians and Jews - were allowed to live peacefully and unmolested in many early Islamic polities in the Middle Ages, as long as they acknowledged the POLITICAL (not necessarily religious) authority of the local Caliph, Sultan, or Emir, and had to pay a different (but notably higher) tax than non-Moslems - and, in fact, because of this tax, and pragmatically taking advantage of the fact (like Medieval Europeans often did) that Judaism did not outlaw usury, made keeping such communities in their border made fiscal sense for Medieval Islamic rulers. Also, take very close note, that the phenomenon labeled today as "Islamist Terrorism" is not very old at all as a thing - in fact, it didn't start until the Cold War did - which very likely means that Ron Paul was actually correct about it's REAL origins and foundations and whose REALLY to blame for riling it up into actual existence.

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5 minutes ago, Patine said:

This is based on a lot of misunderstandings of the text of the Quran and it's historical context exploited by both radical "Islamist" leaders to evil ends, and as justification for arbitrary, extreme, indiscrimanatory overkill war crimes and atrocities by mostly Christian-, Jewish-, and Hindu-majority nations. First, the 40+ virgins in heaven after dying killing infidels is highly misrepresented. The actual context is to die such fighting effective infidel COMBANTANTS (like Crusaders, in the Middle Ages, for example) who are invading lands ruled by Islamic rulers and under Islamic law in DEFENSE of their homeland. Seeking out and killing infidel civilians in their own lands and killing them in cowardly suicide is actually not counted, and, in fact, by other verse, would be considered despicable. Also, forced conversion was not originally a big thing, as whole communities of non-Moslems who also followed "the Book" - like Christians and Jews - were allowed to live peacefully and unmolested in many early Islamic polities in the Middle Ages, as long as they acknowledged the POLITICAL (not necessarily religious) authority of the local Caliph, Sultan, or Emir, and had to pay a different (but notably higher) tax than non-Moslems - and, in fact, because of this tax, and pragmatically taking advantage of the fact (like Medieval Europeans often did) that Judaism did not outlaw usury, made keeping such communities in their border made fiscal sense for Medieval Islamic rulers. Also, take very close note, that the phenomenon labeled today as "Islamist Terrorism" is not very old at all as a thing - in fact, it didn't start until the Cold War did - which very likely means that Ron Paul was actually correct about it's REAL origins and foundations and whose REALLY to blame for riling it up into actual existence.

Forced conversion is very much present in Islamic history. Here's a short list of such incidences

  • forced conversions under the Almohad dynasty
  • 'Abd-al-Nabī ibn Mahdi in Yemen in the 1160's
  •  al-Malik al-Mu'izz al-Ismail in Yemen in the 1190's and early 1200's
  • Al-Shawkānī advocacy and implementation of forced conversion of orphans
  • the devşirme in the Ottoman empire
  • Several examples under the Safavid dynasty
  • Mahmud of Ghazni and Sikandar Butshikan forcefully converted people
  • Islamic Razakar militias in Bagladesh were found guilty of such
  • It happened during the Noakhali riots
  •  A 2014 report by the Movement for Solidarity and Peace (MSP) says about 1,000 women in Pakistan are forcibly converted to Islam every year (700 Christian and 300 Hindu)
  • Members of the Orang Rimba tribe were forced to convert in Indonesia in 2017
  • There's been allgeations of Coptics being forced to convert in Egypt
  • Two fox news reporters were kidnapped and forced to convert in Gaza in 2006
  • According to the UK prison officers' union, some Muslim prisoners in the UK have been forcibly converting fellow inmates to Islam in prisons

Please read the pact of Umar and tell me that non-muslims are equal to muslims in Islamic law.

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18 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Forced conversion is very much present in Islamic history. Here's a short list of such incidences

  • forced conversions under the Almohad dynasty
  • 'Abd-al-Nabī ibn Mahdi in Yemen in the 1160's
  •  al-Malik al-Mu'izz al-Ismail in Yemen in the 1190's and early 1200's
  • Al-Shawkānī advocacy and implementation of forced conversion of orphans
  • the devşirme in the Ottoman empire
  • Several examples under the Safavid dynasty
  • Mahmud of Ghazni and Sikandar Butshikan forcefully converted people
  • Islamic Razakar militias in Bagladesh were found guilty of such
  • It happened during the Noakhali riots
  •  A 2014 report by the Movement for Solidarity and Peace (MSP) says about 1,000 women in Pakistan are forcibly converted to Islam every year (700 Christian and 300 Hindu)
  • Members of the Orang Rimba tribe were forced to convert in Indonesia in 2017
  • There's been allgeations of Coptics being forced to convert in Egypt
  • Two fox news reporters were kidnapped and forced to convert in Gaza in 2006
  • According to the UK prison officers' union, some Muslim prisoners in the UK have been forcibly converting fellow inmates to Islam in prisons

Please read the pact of Umar and tell me that non-muslims are equal to muslims in Islamic law.

Yemenis and Moroccans were extreme, militant outliers in the actual Medieval Islamic community (and the only actual Medieval examples you gave), and once you hit the mid- to late-Ottoman era, things become more politicized. And, again, more than half of those examples are Cold War or Post-Cold War, a fact that feeds into, rather than deflects my point.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Yemenis and Moroccans were extreme, militant outliers in the actual Medieval Islamic community (and the only actual Medieval examples you gave), and once you hit the mid- to late-Ottoman era, things become more politicized. And, again, more than half of those examples are Cold War or Post-Cold War, a fact that feeds into, rather than deflects my point.

I gave you examples from India and Persia in the Middle ages.

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Just now, NYrepublican said:

I gave you examples from India and Persia in the Middle ages.

Well, "forcibly converting" orphans to show gratitude for the religion raising them is a bad habit ALL THREE Abrahamic Monotheist religions and others like Buddhism have a long history of. It's always viewed as a natural extension of charity to actually raise them in the day.

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4 minutes ago, Patine said:

Well, "forcibly converting" orphans to show gratitude for the religion raising them is a bad habit ALL THREE Abrahamic Monotheist religions and others like Buddhism have a long history of. It's always viewed as a natural extension of charity to actually raise them in the day.

Never heard of such incidences among Jews. If you could source that it's be greatly appreciated.

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10 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Never heard of such incidences among Jews. If you could source that it's be greatly appreciated.

There are a few occurances here and there, I have read, where a Jewish Rabbi, whose child had died young, or him and his wife had *ahem* reproductive issues, etc., might take in, as desire to have a child, and a view of performing a mitzah, a non-Jewish from the city. The child would be raised as a Jew, and not really consulted or offered a choice in the matter, and, by the time they were of age, no one would ever mistake them for anything but, except may an atypical hair or eye colour to his community. But, given the day, not choice would be given, and few papers with non-Jewish authorities would be file. And indeed, given the tradition of the driven "spare the rod, spoil the child," old school Jewish father, it may seem like a shocking hard to a very young street rat. Of course, this was major European cities between the 14th Century and WW2, not modern days, but since your orphan example is Medieval, which are even MORE brutal and barbaric times FOR and TO everyone (and time, I must note, that many Islamic nations were shining beacons of learning, civilization, and order, comparatively, especially to Medieval Western Europe), there you have it.

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12 minutes ago, Patine said:

There are a few occurances here and there, I have read, where a Jewish Rabbi, whose child had died young, or him and his wife had *ahem* reproductive issues, etc., might take in, as desire to have a child, and a view of performing a mitzah, a non-Jewish from the city. The child would be raised as a Jew, and not really consulted or offered a choice in the matter, and, by the time they were of age, no one would ever mistake them for anything but, except may an atypical hair or eye colour to his community. But, given the day, not choice would be given, and few papers with non-Jewish authorities would be file. And indeed, given the tradition of the driven "spare the rod, spoil the child," old school Jewish father, it may seem like a shocking hard to a very young street rat. Of course, this was major European cities between the 14th Century and WW2, not modern days, but since your orphan example is Medieval, which are even MORE brutal and barbaric times FOR and TO everyone (and time, I must note, that many Islamic nations were shining beacons of learning, civilization, and order, comparatively, especially to Medieval Western Europe), there you have it.

I want a citation,sir.

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6 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

I want a citation,sir.

I didn't read it on the Internet. Unfortunately, for you young folk, where ALL your wisdom and knowledge is from the Internet and can be called directly from the source, some of us older folk had anachronistic things called "books," "magazines," and "newspapers," and watched old TV documentaries and special interest shows that don't show up on iTunes, Netflix, Amazon, or YouTube, so you'll have to forgive the "fog of ages" being a factor you're just not used to. Now get off my lawn!

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3 minutes ago, Patine said:

 I didn't read it on the Internet. Unfortunately, for you young folk, where ALL your wisdom and knowledge is from the Internet and can be called directly from the source, some of us older folk had anachronistic things called "books," "magazines," and "newspapers," and watched old TV documentaries and special interest shows that don't show up on iTunes, Netflix, Amazon, or YouTube, so you'll have to forgive the "fog of ages" being a factor you're just not used to. Now get off my lawn!

Please tell me which media you refer to at the earliest possible time. Thank you.

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1 minute ago, NYrepublican said:

Please tell me which media you refer to at the earliest possible time. Thank you.

Let me ask you this. Do you honestly BELIEVE that if a Rabbi in that day and age quietly took in a young orphan out of the above-stated losses in his life, he would realistically give the orphan a full and robust CHOICE in what religion and culture he'd be raised into, and gracefully accept the answer with no problem?

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Let me ask you this. Do you honestly BELIEVE that if a Rabbi in that day and age quietly took in a young orphan out of the above-stated losses in his life, he would realistically give the orphan a full and robust CHOICE in what religion and culture he'd be raised into, and gracefully accept the answer with no problem?

I doubt it happened because in those days there were statutes that the entire community would be put to death if a Jewish community converted a Christian.

For example the Jews in Christian Europe on page 12 cites a law from Constantine the Great which reads

Quote

Concerning Jews,Heaven Worshippers and Samaritans

We wish to amke it known to the Jews and their elders and their patriarchs that if, after the enactment of this law, anyone of them dares to atatck with stones or some other manifestation of anger another who has fled their dangerous sect and attached himself to the worship fo God [Christianity], he must speedily be given to the flames and burnt together with all his accomplices. Moreover, if anyone of the population should join their abominable sect and attend their meetings, he will bear with them the deserved punishment. [emphasis mine]

That and the fact that many authorities at the time began to speak of proselytes as a problem is why I'm skeptical of that claim and asked for a citation.

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6 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

I doubt it happened because in those days there were statutes that the entire community would be put to death if a Jewish community converted a Christian.

For example the Jews in Christian Europe on page 12 cites a law from Constantine the Great which reads

That and the fact that many authorities at the time began to speak of proselytes as a problem is why I'm skeptical of that claim and asked for a citation.

Are you actually under the impression, somehow, that ALL the nations of Medieval Christian Europe followed the same law codes, and that it was one, itself, superceded where it was followed by the Justinian Code in 7th Century?

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24 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

I doubt it happened because in those days there were statutes that the entire community would be put to death if a Jewish community converted a Christian.

For example the Jews in Christian Europe on page 12 cites a law from Constantine the Great which reads

That and the fact that many authorities at the time began to speak of proselytes as a problem is why I'm skeptical of that claim and asked for a citation.

I'm also of the firm and staunch belief that when any parents/guardians, whether of natural or adopted children, orphans, or any other charge or ward of theirs under the age of majority, deliberately work through that child's formative years to indoctrinate, initiate, create mandatory religious education, and push the firm expectation that said child JOIN the given religious community, and that the community and religious actively participate in this, it is, by definition, "forced conversion" (or tantamount to it), a violation of innocence and free will, and should not be legal in a civilized nation. I believe (as I've said before) only a full adult, in command of their faculties, whom a civilized and modern nation would consider also eligible to marry, take a loan from the bank or buy and sell real-estate without a co-signer, or start a business, comes willingly to the religion and firmly and, of their own conscience, chooses to pursue that religion's path, fully knowing what it means and what it entails.

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55 minutes ago, Patine said:

Are you actually under the impression, somehow, that ALL the nations of Medieval Christian Europe followed the same law codes, and that it was one, itself, superceded where it was followed by the Justinian Code in 7th Century?

It was an example of such a law.

31 minutes ago, Patine said:

I'm also of the firm and staunch belief that when any parents/guardians, whether of natural or adopted children, orphans, or any other charge or ward of theirs under the age of majority, deliberately work through that child's formative years to indoctrinate, initiate, create mandatory religious education, and push the firm expectation that said child JOIN the given religious community, and that the community and religious actively participate in this, it is, by definition, "forced conversion" (or tantamount to it), a violation of innocence and free will, and should not be legal in a civilized nation. I believe (as I've said before) only a full adult, in command of their faculties, whom a civilized and modern nation would consider also eligible to marry, take a loan from the bank or buy and sell real-estate without a co-signer, or start a business, comes willingly to the religion and firmly and, of their own conscience, chooses to pursue that religion's path, fully knowing what it means and what it entails.

So according to you I was forcibly converted into Orthodox Judaism right?

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2 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

It was an example of such a law.

So according to you I was forcibly converted into Orthodox Judaism right?

I'm afraid so. It should be a Natural Human Right, joined at the hip with Freedom of Religion, to have the Right to Choose Your Own Faith or Spiritual Path When You are of the Age of Understanding With no Social, National, Legal, or Financial Pressures or Coercions.

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9 minutes ago, Patine said:

 I'm afraid so. It should be a Natural Human Right, joined at the hip with Freedom of Religion, to have the Right to Choose Your Own Faith or Spiritual Path When You are of the Age of Understanding With no Social, National, Legal, or Financial Pressures or Coercions.

Would you apply the same to people who agreed with any other sentiment due to upbringing or equivalent circumstances to believers raised in religious households?

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34 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Would you apply the same to people who agreed with any other sentiment due to upbringing or equivalent circumstances to believers raised in religious households?

I would apply the same to political, classist, and skewed demographic upbringings, as well as ones where someone's profession was effectively selected by their family from a very young age, and the same kind of upbringing tactics used.

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4 minutes ago, Patine said:

I would apply the same to political, classist, and skewed demographic upbringings, as well as ones where someone's profession was effectively selected by their family from a very young age, and the same kind of upbringing tactics used.

Would you apply the same to someone who was raised to believe mainstream ideas like that the definition of race is socially constructed?

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Just now, NYrepublican said:

Would you apply the same to someone who was raised to believe mainstream ideas like that the definition of race is socially constructed?

That depends. How are you defining race as a social defense? I view race as the Anthropological Human Races - European, African, South Asian, East Asian, Indigenous Australian, Indigenous American, Melanesian, Micronesian, and Polynesian, as well as admixtures through intermarriages. However, some people mix cultural, religious, political, and cultural baggage, creating identities that are not truly "Anthropological Races" by definition, but use the word "race" to add a poignancy to debate - like Aryan/Nordic, Jewish, Anglo-Saxon, Slavic, etc. "races." And while such identities do exist, undoubtedly, and they are often larger than individual, singular ethnic or national groups, and often incorporate several each, they are not actually "races." Another case where a better and more concise word would be very helpful to introduce here.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

That depends. How are you defining race as a social defense? I view race as the Anthropological Human Races - European, African, South Asian, East Asian, Indigenous Australian, Indigenous American, Melanesian, Micronesian, and Polynesian, as well as admixtures through intermarriages. However, some people mix cultural, religious, political, and cultural baggage, creating identities that are not truly "Anthropological Races" by definition, but use the word "race" to add a poignancy to debate - like Aryan/Nordic, Jewish, Anglo-Saxon, Slavic, etc. "races." And while such identities do exist, undoubtedly, and they are often larger than individual, singular ethnic or national groups, and often incorporate several each, they are not actually "races." Another case where a better and more concise word would be very helpful to introduce here.

Fine. The belief that charity is good.

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4 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Fine. The belief that charity is good.

If charity is forced from one's hand, or is not one's true intention to give, is it really charity? Can one have the face and words of Mother Theresa but the heart of Ebenezer Scrooge?

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  • 2 months later...

@NYrepublican @Patine Hello folks, while I was not active here for quite some time, I have been quietly been working on a September 2019 scenario and a post election update for April 2019. I think the new scenario will be ready around August 1st when the party submission deadline is met

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