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36 minutes ago, Patine said:

Was Gantz the one that brought down the government in the first place?

Nah that was infighting between the parties, Gantz only joined later

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On 4/11/2019 at 10:42 PM, Ido said:

No idea @NYrepublican I did everything i could to prevent that, tbh I should give each party less PIPs

If I remember correctly they also had Very Good relations with each other. I can’t remember if they start that way or if that came about from them teaming up against everyone else, but parties that would never coalition with each other should probably start with Very Bad relations. 

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10 minutes ago, Patine said:

I was more leaning to part of viewing Israel as an actual "nation" in the modern sense, and not a religious homeland, and a two-state solution with Palestine, and centrist domestic policies.

A two-state solution is lovely as a dream but it's not going to realistically happen anytime soon. Most unfortunately. (By God, may I be wrong.)

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8 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

A two-state solution is lovely as a dream but it's not going to realistically happen anytime soon. Most unfortunately. (By God, may I be wrong.)

And peace is kinda hard with guys like this

 

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7 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

A two-state solution is lovely as a dream but it's not going to realistically happen anytime soon. Most unfortunately. (By God, may I be wrong.)

Well, as they say, it takes two to tango - and two to brawl. That's my comment on what's needed, and who's to blame for the failure so far. And the international supporters of both sides are only making matters worse - not helping in the least. Neither "divest Israel" movements, NOR Trump militantly pissing down his embassy in Jerusalem, and making a big show of it so everyone knows, nor most previous efforts for both sides going back to the '40's, have helped, and have only ever exacerbated the situation.

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3 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

And peace is kinda hard with guys like this

 

Or in the face of bombs coming down on purely civilian neighbourhoods, or infrastructure purely for civilians, from Kfirs.

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5 minutes ago, Patine said:

 Or in the face of bombs coming down on purely civilian neighbourhoods, or infrastructure purely for civilians, from Kfirs.

After those kfirs have told you to get out several hours ago.

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Just now, NYrepublican said:

After those kfirs have told you to get out several hours ago.

What if you have nowhere to go? The Gaza Strip is a very small, but HIGHLY densely populated region surrounded by closed borders.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

What if you have nowhere to go? The Gaza Strip is a very small, but HIGHLY densely populated region surrounded by closed borders.

Maybe a thing to consider before provoking retaliatory strikes by Israel by sending rockets there.

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17 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Maybe a thing to consider before provoking retaliatory strikes by Israel by sending rockets there.

So, you believe in group complicency for the guilt of the few? One of the most dangerous ideologies of "guilt" and "blame" conceived by humanity, used to justify massacres, seizures of lands, en masse stripping of rights, forced relocation, Stalin's "collective punishment," the Holocaust, etc...

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9 minutes ago, Patine said:

So, you believe in group complicency for the guilt of the few? One of the most dangerous ideologies of "guilt" and "blame" conceived by humanity, used to justify massacres, seizures of lands, en masse stripping of rights, forced relocation, Stalin's "collective punishment," the Holocaust, etc...

Is there any case where you would strike at a country due to terrists operating from there?

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12 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Is there any case where you would strike at a country due to terrists operating from there?

The only nations in the world today with reasonably significant, well-trained, and well-equipped militaries that I believe have military doctrines that truly be called "self-defense" without being insulting lies or utter hypocrisy are Switzerland, Sweden, and Finland. Also, as I've said before, there is no real crime or activity legitimately called "terrorism" - the term is a highly-politicized and arbitrary label used to justify violations of justice, international law, and domestic due process - almost always by nations who, themselves, have groups that should, by their given definitions, have the same label on their own payroll.

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24 minutes ago, Patine said:

The only nations in the world today with reasonably significant, well-trained, and well-equipped militaries that I believe have military doctrines that truly be called "self-defense" without being insulting lies or utter hypocrisy are Switzerland, Sweden, and Finland. Also, as I've said before, there is no real crime or activity legitimately called "terrorism" - the term is a highly-politicized and arbitrary label used to justify violations of justice, international law, and domestic due process - almost always by nations who, themselves, have groups that should, by their given definitions, have the same label on their own payroll.

What is bombing civilians then if not terrorism?

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5 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

What is bombing civilians then if not terrorism?

Here is a list, by the standard criminal codes of most Western, of the main crimes committed by the groups commonly labelled "terrorist groups" today.

-First degree murder (often multiple counts per incident)
-Destruction of public and private property
-Illegally commandeering vehicles for criminal purposes
-Kidnapping and hostage taking
-Criminal trespass
-Illegal possession of firearms (including military calibre) and ordinances
-Illegally entering the nation where said incident takes place
-Espousing the violent overthrow of, and advocating violent insurgency against, the nation where said incident takes place
-Religious, ethnic, and gender-related (and, in at least one instance, sexual-orientation based) "hate" crime motivation
-Criminal fundraising
-Extortion, blackmail, and making threats of death and destruction

-Forced slavery and slave-trade

-Conspiracy to commit above crimes.

With all of that on them already, is there REALLY any need to tack on a conjured, artificial, ill-defined, highly-subject-to-political-abuse, and violative-of-the very-concept-of-justice-and-due-process-in-civilized-nations "new or extra crime" on top of that all?

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

Here is a list, by the standard criminal codes of most Western, of the main crimes committed by the groups commonly labelled "terrorist groups" today.

-First degree murder (often multiple counts per incident)
-Destruction of public and private property
-Illegally commandeering vehicles for criminal purposes
-Kidnapping and hostage taking
-Criminal trespass
-Illegal possession of firearms (including military calibre) and ordinances
-Illegally entering the nation where said incident takes place
-Espousing the violent overthrow of, and advocating violent insurgency against, the nation where said incident takes place
-Religious, ethnic, and gender-related (and, in at least one instance, sexual-orientation based) "hate" crime motivation
-Criminal fundraising
-Extortion, blackmail, and making threats of death and destruction

-Forced slavery and slave-trade

-Conspiracy to commit above crimes.

With all of that on them already, is there REALLY any need to tack on a conjured, artificial, ill-defined, highly-subject-to-political-abuse, and violative-of-the very-concept-of-justice-and-due-process-in-civilized-nations "new or extra crime" on top of that all?

Your rebuttal is, @NYrepublican?

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17 minutes ago, Patine said:

Your rebuttal is, @NYrepublican?

How does conspiracy not fall into the "conjured, artificial, ill-defined, highly-subject-to-political-abuse, and violative-of-the very-concept-of-justice-and-due-process-in-civilized-nations" category?

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13 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

How does conspiracy not fall into the "conjured, artificial, ill-defined, highly-subject-to-political-abuse, and violative-of-the very-concept-of-justice-and-due-process-in-civilized-nations" category?

Conspiracy to commit murder (i.e., ordering a "hit" or "death contract" on someone) is a high criminal offense in most Anglosphere Common Law nations. Time to brush up on your standard, common-usage criminal law, instead of believing extra-ordinary, extra-judicial, rights-violating, due-process ignoring legal mechanisms are EVER justified by a civilized nation respecting the concepts of law and order, due process, the rights of human beings, and their own constitutional laws and do not instead make criminals of said government officials, themselves, instead.

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@NYrepublican, I await an answer as to why the tool of tyranny and object of oppression to violate utterly due process and upend justice itself to fight groups with an artificial politicized label of "terrorist", that many Western and a couple Israeli government agencies and a number of Western-supported foreign militias live up to vague definition of anyways, and a label that could can so easily be picked up and used against legal, peaceful political opponents in the future, by definition, is needed or should even be further tolerated of these governments by their own people. I'd like to hear it!

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

@NYrepublican, I await an answer as to why the tool of tyranny and object of oppression to violate utterly due process and upend justice itself to fight groups with an artificial politicized label of "terrorist", that many Western and a couple Israeli government agencies and a number of Western-supported foreign militias live up to vague definition of anyways, and a label that could can so easily be picked up and used against legal, peaceful political opponents in the future, by definition, is needed or should even be further tolerated of these governments by their own people. I'd like to hear it!

It is used to designate and out-group of people against our values like Freedom of speech which is slowly being abolished being people are too sensitive.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-free-speech-criticize-muhammad-echr-ruled/574174/

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