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Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel?


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Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel?  

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  1. 1. Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel?

    • yes
      17
    • no
      7


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36 minutes ago, pilight said:

The "Bleeding Kansas" approach.  That always goes well.

Suppose bunches of Palestinians move into West Jerusalem.  Can they claim it as their own when they outnumber the Israelis?

I'm not saying it a great approach, and I'm not aiming to make an exact comparison between the two. What I am saying is that it seems that there is an overlap on claims for the capital of the two respective states. I do not think Palestine should claim land that is inhabited primarily by Israelis and I do not think Israel should claim any part of East Jerusalem that is primarily inhabited by Palestinians. That doesn't automatically make it a Bleeding Kansas approach. As you can see from my comment that I am aware of a "bleeding kansas" possibility as I mention Israel gobbling up territory before Palestine gets complete sovereignty. I am saying that the separation of the two countries must be official, complete and undeniable quickly, while East Jerusalem is still primarily Palestinian. Although, I doubt Israel will give up even an inch of Jerusalem, even if entire neighborhoods are without a single Israelite. 

This can be avoided if Palestine agreed to give up the entirety of Jerusalem in exchange for both recognized statehood and concessions (including holy site visitations, holy site protections, etc.), including the allowance of dual citizenship for Palestinians wishing to remain in Israel. US could appease Israel by (and I hate to say this) increased foreign aid to Israel for an agreed period of time (20 years, perhaps), and a strengthened defense pact, since they're paranoid that Palestinian statehood might make it more difficult for them to defend themselves. I really think the Palestinians, if they want statehood, will have to be much more flexible. I don't think any deal will be reached with anyone like Netanyahu in power. I also think Hamas needs decreased influence in Palestine, since I believe the more extreme segments of Hamas want a perpetual war over statehood. 

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3 hours ago, pilight said:

The notion that might makes right isn't human nature, it's a leftover from when we were wild animals.  It's certainly not a Christian, Jewish, or Islamic sentiment.  It's not even why the Israelis claim Jerusalem.

The spoils of war for the Jewish people against the Canaanites was the land that become Israel.

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1 hour ago, jvikings1 said:

The spoils of war for the Jewish people against the Canaanites was the land that become Israel.

That particular chain of events was 2800 years ago or so. And the modern Palestinians are NOT the Ancient Canaanites. That style of thinking could be easily used to justify all manners of ludicrous and outmoded land claims by sheer contrivance all over the word.

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

That particular chain of events was 2800 years ago or so. And the modern Palestinians are NOT the Ancient Canaanites. That style of thinking could be easily used to justify all manners of ludicrous and outmoded land claims by sheer contrivance all over the word.

Not saying that is the case.  I was referring to the point on religion being involved.

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2 hours ago, Patine said:

That particular chain of events was 2800 years ago or so. And the modern Palestinians are NOT the Ancient Canaanites. That style of thinking could be easily used to justify all manners of ludicrous and outmoded land claims by sheer contrivance all over the word.

well the palestinians claim to be such.

see here for an example(http://www.meforum.org/3273/palestinian-founding-national-myths

my views are probably in line with @vcczar's

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1 hour ago, jvikings1 said:

Not saying that is the case.  I was referring to the point on religion being involved.

 

20 minutes ago, republicaninnyc said:

well the palestinians claim to be such.

see here for an example(http://www.meforum.org/3273/palestinian-founding-national-myths

my views are probably in line with @vcczar's

Also, it seems strongly implied that the conquest of Israel from the Canaanites by God's personal sanction and support was a "one-time deal," NOT an "eternally self-renewing offer," if you will, considering every conquest of the Israelites in their own lands thereafter in the Biblical narrative (the Assyrians, the Chaldeans/Babylonians, the Persians, in the Apocrypha, the Hellenistic Macedonians, and, before the New Testament starts, the Romans), are ALL sanctioned by God and his will and deliberate desire as well - as indicated, as two examples, by Daniel's vision of the statue of multiple layered materials indicating conquerors of the region, and God saying DIRECTLY to either Obadiah or Habakuk (one of the two) that "the Chaldeans have scourged Israel," by God's design, but God doesn't elaborate why. 

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Just now, Patine said:

 

Also, it seems strongly implied that the conquest of Israel from the Canaanites by God's personal sanction and support was a "one-time deal," NOT an "eternally self-renewing offer," if you will, considering every conquest of the Israelites in their own lands thereafter in the Biblical narrative (the Assyrians, the Chaldeans/Babylonians, the Persians, in the Apocrypha, the Hellenistic Macedonians, and, before the New Testament starts, the Romans), are ALL sanctioned by God and his will and deliberate desire as well - as indicated, as two examples, by Daniel's vision of the statue of multiple layered materials indicating conquerors of the region, and God saying DIRECTLY to either Obadiah or Habakuk (one of the two) that "the Chaldeans have scourged Israel," by God's design, but God doesn't elaborate why. 

also them being such is laughable. all of those nations were destroyed by the Israelites,Assyrians or babylonians (there were a lot of city states of those nations). that and the palestinians have also claimed that Jesus was a palestinian (in a nationalistic context)

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23 minutes ago, republicaninnyc said:

also them being such is laughable. all of those nations were destroyed by the Israelites,Assyrians or babylonians (there were a lot of city states of those nations). that and the palestinians have also claimed that Jesus was a palestinian (in a nationalistic context)

First of all, who destroyed who (the first part of that statement isn't clear)? And, second, it doesn't matter and isn't relevant what a few crackpot Palestinian religious leaders at some point declared about Jesus (I've literally heard some very uninformed American Evangelical Christians declare that Jesus was an American for nationalistic purposes) - such a claim being made does NOT AT ALL change the parameters of the debate in any way.

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Just now, Patine said:

First of all, who destroyed who (the first part of that statement isn't clear)? And, second, it doesn't matter and isn't relevant what a few crackpot Palestinian religious leaders at some point declared about Jesus (I've literally heard some very uninformed American Evangelical Christians declare that Jesus was an American for nationalistic purposes) - such a claim being made does NOT AT ALL change the parameters of the debate in any way.

It depends during the first temple era you had a lot of unconquered city states that were later conquered by either the assyrians or the babylonians.

my 2nd part this is Fatah officials http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=505 (it has  a video on the site)

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38 minutes ago, republicaninnyc said:

It depends during the first temple era you had a lot of unconquered city states that were later conquered by either the assyrians or the babylonians.

my 2nd part this is Fatah officials http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=505 (it has  a video on the site)

But claims on the nationality of Jesus aren't relevant to the debate over sovereignty of Jerusalem in any real way, shape, or form.

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2 hours ago, Patine said:

 

Also, it seems strongly implied that the conquest of Israel from the Canaanites by God's personal sanction and support was a "one-time deal," NOT an "eternally self-renewing offer," if you will, considering every conquest of the Israelites in their own lands thereafter in the Biblical narrative (the Assyrians, the Chaldeans/Babylonians, the Persians, in the Apocrypha, the Hellenistic Macedonians, and, before the New Testament starts, the Romans), are ALL sanctioned by God and his will and deliberate desire as well - as indicated, as two examples, by Daniel's vision of the statue of multiple layered materials indicating conquerors of the region, and God saying DIRECTLY to either Obadiah or Habakuk (one of the two) that "the Chaldeans have scourged Israel," by God's design, but God doesn't elaborate why. 

Again, I didn't say that was the case.

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Honestly, I don't know how you sort out all the historical claims and counter-claims in this case. Probably the ideal solution would be for Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza to merge into more of a secular democracy and drop the restrictions on who can travel or live in certain places within its territory, but preserve the right of immigration for Jews so that it remains a "sanctuary" as it has been. Of course, that being the ideal solution, probably hardly anyone would agree to it. 

Practically, I'd say establish a Palestinian state on the West Bank, relocate as many of the settlers to Israel proper as possible, and limit "right of return" to Palestinians who were actually living in Israel's present borders at some point (i.e. you don't automatically get in if it was actually your great-grandfather who fled Israel before you were born).

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4 hours ago, RI Democrat said:

Honestly, I don't know how you sort out all the historical claims and counter-claims in this case. Probably the ideal solution would be for Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza to merge into more of a secular democracy and drop the restrictions on who can travel or live in certain places within its territory, but preserve the right of immigration for Jews so that it remains a "sanctuary" as it has been. Of course, that being the ideal solution, probably hardly anyone would agree to it. 

Practically, I'd say establish a Palestinian state on the West Bank, relocate as many of the settlers to Israel proper as possible, and limit "right of return" to Palestinians who were actually living in Israel's present borders at some point (i.e. you don't automatically get in if it was actually your great-grandfather who fled Israel before you were born).

I'd say that I'd agree with your ideal solution (a joint state) except that no one (both the palestinians and Israeli parties like bayit yehudi/jewish home would accept it)  

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33 minutes ago, republicaninnyc said:

I'd say that I'd agree with your ideal solution (a joint state) except that no one (both the palestinians and Israeli parties like bayit yehudi/jewish home would accept it)  

 

5 hours ago, RI Democrat said:

Honestly, I don't know how you sort out all the historical claims and counter-claims in this case. Probably the ideal solution would be for Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza to merge into more of a secular democracy and drop the restrictions on who can travel or live in certain places within its territory, but preserve the right of immigration for Jews so that it remains a "sanctuary" as it has been. Of course, that being the ideal solution, probably hardly anyone would agree to it. 

Practically, I'd say establish a Palestinian state on the West Bank, relocate as many of the settlers to Israel proper as possible, and limit "right of return" to Palestinians who were actually living in Israel's present borders at some point (i.e. you don't automatically get in if it was actually your great-grandfather who fled Israel before you were born).

Have you seen, as an example of a "compromise system" to allow a number of people with uncompromising, overlapping land claims and a deep, long-entrenched hatred for each other to co-exist in the same country, the current constitutional and political system of government in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It has been described as one of the most convoluted, difficult-to-understand, over-bureaucratic, and overwrought governments of any nation on Earth today.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

 

Have you seen, as an example of a "compromise system" to allow a number of people with uncompromising, overlapping land claims and a deep, long-entrenched hatred for each other to co-exist in the same country, the current constitutional and political system of government in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It has been described as one of the most convoluted, difficult-to-understand, over-bureaucratic, and overwrought governments of any nation on Earth today.

Bosnia and herzegovina was also deeply affected and destablizied by the yugoslav wars that would not be a factor in this case.

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Just now, republicaninnyc said:

Bosnia and herzegovina was also deeply affected and destablizied by the yugoslav wars that would not be a factor in this case.

No, instead a long history of Ottoman rule and British mismanagement of the Palestine Mandate set the issue here to a foul start instead.

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Just now, Patine said:

No, instead a long history of Ottoman rule and British mismanagement of the Palestine Mandate set the issue here to a foul start instead.

I'm saying if they were to join together the joint state would not come right out of a war and a genocide. 

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Just now, republicaninnyc said:

I'm saying if they were to join together the joint state would not come right out of a war and a genocide. 

But, the mentality that has historically led to bloody wars and genocides on the scale of the Yugoslav Wars is present in certain leaders on both sides, simmering under the surface - it's a miracle it hasn't completely boiled over to that degree yet.

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Just now, Patine said:

But, the mentality that has historically led to bloody wars and genocides on the scale of the Yugoslav Wars is present in certain leaders on both sides, simmering under the surface - it's a miracle it hasn't completely boiled over to that degree yet.

If a joint state would happen thos epeople would probably be out of office.

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Just now, republicaninnyc said:

If a joint state would happen thos epeople would probably be out of office.

And the instigators and great offenders of the Bosnian genocides are not currently in office - in fact, it was a condition of the convoluted compromise government I was speaking of.

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10 hours ago, Patine said:

And the instigators and great offenders of the Bosnian genocides are not currently in office - in fact, it was a condition of the convoluted compromise government I was speaking of.

the Turkish lords had the right to take any Christian women, even if she was married to a Christian man and have sex with her.

The Jizya tax was an obligatory tax on non-muslims

The Bosnian Serbs had been mistreated for 100's of years

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9 hours ago, koneke said:

the Turkish lords had the right to take any Christian women, even if she was married to a Christian man and have sex with her.

The Jizya tax was an obligatory tax on non-muslims

The Bosnian Serbs had been mistreated for 100's of years

I remind you, those Turkish lord also ruled what is now the Palestine/Israel region for a longer period than Bosnia, and imposed similar laws. And also, not everyone living in that region (or who historically has) is only either a Jew or Moslem, despite that stereotype being propagated by omission of information in Western media in many cases...

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