1912

[ScottM]

I recently checked for interest in working on an 1860 scenario, and much to my pleasure was informed that one was almost completed. So, I figured I'd ask about another interesting election: 1912.

I checked the forums, and while it appears that there was discussion about creating this scenario a couple of times, it doesn't appear that they were ever completed. Has anyone completes this scenario? If not, is anyone else interested in working on it? If anyone else is interested, let me know.

BTW, if we create a new scenario, I thought it might be fun to include Chafin and maybe Reimer. After all, Chafin did pull over 1%, and Reimer was on the ballot in enough states to have the possibility of winning.

Any takers?

[Patine]

I recently checked for interest in working on an 1860 scenario, and much to my pleasure was informed that one was almost completed. So, I figured I'd ask about another interesting election: 1912.

I checked the forums, and while it appears that there was discussion about creating this scenario a couple of times, it doesn't appear that they were ever completed. Has anyone completes this scenario? If not, is anyone else interested in working on it? If anyone else is interested, let me know.

BTW, if we create a new scenario, I thought it might be fun to include Chafin and maybe Reimer. After all, Chafin did pull over 1%, and Reimer was on the ballot in enough states to have the possibility of winning.

Any takers?

I'm willing to help. This election is one of my personal favourite US elections. How are we going to get started?

[ScottM]

Like I said in my 1860 post, I'm definitely not an expert at this, but I guess candidates and issues would be a good place to start. If I get off track with this, somebody stop me.

All of this will be from a scan of Wikipedia and Our Campaigns for tonight, because I'm really tired and don't feel too well.

As for candidates:

Republican:

Taft (obviously)

LaFollette

Roosevelt (off by default; have him on by default for the Progressives)

Cummins (off by default, he declared but his name wasn't entered at the convention

Democrat:

Wilson (obviously)

Clark (early frontrunner)

Harmon

Underwood

Marshall

Bryan (off by default; certainly had a habit of running)

Progressive:

Roosevelt

Socialist:

Debs

Prohibition:

Chafin

Socialist Labor:

Reimer

Issues:

Anti-Trust Laws

Conservation

Election of Judges

Labor Laws

Regulation

Tariffs

Unions

We still need 12 more issues, but my brain can't function any more right now.

Any more ideas?

[ScottM]

Accidently posted twice. Sorry.

[tb75]

13th Admendment

Sufferage

Titanic? if not that, then Travel might would work.

European Relations

[ScottM]

13th Admendment

Sufferage

Titanic? if not that, then Travel might would work.

European Relations

I assume you mean the 16th Ammendment?

I looked up the issues from a 1912 scenario someone created for the 2004 P4E game.

Tariff

Direct Democracy

National Income Tax

Business Regulation

Women's Sufferage

Isolationism

Labor

Conservation

Government Expenditures

Cost of Living

Anti-Trust Laws

Rights of the States

Banking Laws

Taxes

The Phillipines

Socialism

Civil Service

Unemployment

We're pretty much on the same track with our issues so far. Rights of the States would probably be better phrased as "States' Rights," and there are two tax issues (maybe we'd want to replace one?).

Any suggestions as to changes we might want to make to that list?

[Red Dog Democrat]

Prohibition and the Gold Standard need to be added.

[ScottM]

Prohibition and the Gold Standard need to be added.

Agreed. I think maybe Taxes and Cost of Living could be replaced to make room for them.

That gives:

Tariff

Direct Democracy

National Income Tax

Business Regulation

Women's Sufferage

Isolationism

Labor

Conservation

Government Expenditures

Anti-Trust Laws

States' Rights

Banking Laws

The Phillipines

Socialism

Civil Service

Unemployment

Prohibition

Gold Standard

Any more changes or is this what we want?

[Patine]

What about Latin America? That's been a pet issue of the American government since the Monroe Doctrine, though it may be low priority in this election.

[mahaadoxyz]

When/if they introduce the Lieberman option, i.e. lose the primary, run in the general as an independent, we'll finally be able to make this election work as it really happened. Along with 1860, 1948, 1968, etc.

[ScottM]

What about Latin America? That's been a pet issue of the American government since the Monroe Doctrine, though it may be low priority in this election.

Every scenario will have some low-priority issues, so that doesn't necessarily rule it out. The question is, is there another issue that should be dropped to make room for it? We have a full list, so for every issue we add, another has to be dropped. So, is there another issue that should be dropped in favor of Latin America? I think the most likely possibility is Civil Service, but I'm up for debate on it.

BTW, I'll go ahead and bring this up, too. At least for the Republican and Democrat parties, we'll need State delegate totals. Does anybody have/know where to get this information?

Mahaadoxyz, I'm hoping to see that option in the 2012 version of the game. I asked about it in the thread for the new version and was told the decision hasn't been made yet. I did tell the admin that I'd love to see it personally, so, here's hoping!

[ScottM]

Since there's been no further suggestions regarding issues, I guess we'll go with the last list we have which is:

Tariff

Direct Democracy

National Income Tax

Business Regulation

Women's Sufferage

Isolationism

Labor

Conservation

Government Expenditures

Anti-Trust Laws

States' Rights

Banking Laws

The Phillipines

Socialism

Civil Service

Unemployment

Prohibition

Gold Standard

Anyone interested in helping work on issue positions?

[Patine]

Since there's been no further suggestions regarding issues, I guess we'll go with the last list we have which is:

Tariff

Direct Democracy

National Income Tax

Business Regulation

Women's Sufferage

Isolationism

Labor

Conservation

Government Expenditures

Anti-Trust Laws

States' Rights

Banking Laws

The Phillipines

Socialism

Civil Service

Unemployment

Prohibition

Gold Standard

Anyone interested in helping work on issue positions?

You're not going with Latin America? I'd be willing to try my hand at some, perhaps.

[ScottM]

You're not going with Latin America? I'd be willing to try my hand at some, perhaps.

I'm fine with substituting it for something else. What issue would you suggest dropping in favor of it?

[Patine]

I'm fine with substituting it for something else. What issue would you suggest dropping in favor of it?

I'd go with your idea of Civil Service, myself.

[ScottM]

I'd go with your idea of Civil Service, myself.

Works for me.

That gives us:

Tariff

Direct Democracy

National Income Tax

Business Regulation

Women's Sufferage

Isolationism

Labor

Conservation

Government Expenditures

Anti-Trust Laws

States' Rights

Banking Laws

The Philippines

Socialism

Latin America

Unemployment

Prohibition

Gold Standard

I can post the issue positions from the 2004 version of the scenario if you'd like to see them as a starting point.

[Patine]

Works for me.

That gives us:

Tariff

Direct Democracy

National Income Tax

Business Regulation

Women's Sufferage

Isolationism

Labor

Conservation

Government Expenditures

Anti-Trust Laws

States' Rights

Banking Laws

The Philippines

Socialism

Latin America

Unemployment

Prohibition

Gold Standard

I can post the issue positions from the 2004 version of the scenario if you'd like to see them as a starting point.

I think I have that scenario, but might as well so everyone can comment on them.

[ScottM]

OK, here are the issue positions from the 2004 version of 1912 for the applicable issues in our scenario:

Tariff:

Left: Tariffs are a detriment to a Universal Workers State.

Center-Left: Tariffs only for revenue generation.

Center: Tariffs should be used to protect labor interests and revenue.

Center-Right: Tariffs are for the Protection of business and for revenue.

Right: Tariffs make profits for business.

Direct Democracy:

Left: The People should have total electoral power.

Center-Left: For primaries, Senate elections, referendums, initiative and recalls.

Center: The elections are a State's Issue.

Center-Right: Opposed to recalls.

Right: The Democracy is fine as it is.

National Income Tax:

Left: Income Tax is unnessacry in a worker's state.

Center-Left: We need a Constitutional Amendment authorizing the tax.

Center: Taxation is fine as it is.

Center-Left: We should increase revenues through means other than a tax.

Left: National income tax is too much government.

Business Regulation:

Left: Business should be owned by the state.

Center-Left: The Federal government should charter business.

Center: The States should continue to charter business.

Center-Right: We should be wary of business regulation.

Right: Business is not the concern of government.

Women's Suffrage:

Left: Women should have full voting rights.

Center-Left: Only married women or widows should have the vote.

Center: Sufferage is a State issue.

Center-Right: Women should not have sufferage.

Right: Women's Sufferage would be a national tragedy.

Isolationism:

Left: America needs to play a large role in international affairs.

Center-Left: America should pay attention to foriegn affairs.

Center: America should explore itself before looking overseas.

Center-Right: America shouldn't care what happens elsewhere.

Right: America doesn't need the rest of the world.

Labor:

Left: Organized labor is essential to a worker's state.

Center-Left: Labor Unions are a workers best protection against exploitation.

Center: Labor demands must be balanced with business concerns.

Center-Right: Unions are undermining our economy.

Right: Unions should be outlawed.

Conservation:

Left: Our natural resources belong to the nation.

Center-Left: Resource management and preservation is a vital concern.

Center: Resources should be regulated by the government.

Center-Right: Resources should be used to benefit business.

Right: Resources should be sold to the highest bidder.

Government Expenditures:

Left: The federal government should be dramatically bigger.

Center-Left: Modest increase in expenditures, focus on effectiveness.

Center: Small increase in expenditures.

Center-Right: Government expenditures needs to be reduced.

Right: Dramatically reduce the size of the federal government.

Anti-Trust Laws:

Left: The state should own all industry.

Center-Left: Trusts and Monopolies should be broken-up.

Center: Business competiton should be regulated.

Center-Right: We don't need anti-trust laws.

Right: Monopolies should be encouraged.

States' Rights:

Left: The states should surrender sovriegnty to the state.

Center-Left: States should give way to Federal law.

Center: States' rights are fine the way they are.

Center-Right: States' rights are more important than Federal law.

Right: The Confederacy was the way to go.

Banking Laws:

Left: Banks should be abolished.

Center-Left: Banks should bid to hold federal funds.

Center: Banking laws should be tougher.

Center-Right: Banks are fine as they are.

Right: We need a central bank.

Philippines:

Left: The Phillipines should join the worker's state.

Center-Left: The Phillipines should be granted independence.

Center: The Phillipine people should decide their own fate.

Center-Right: We should hold onto the Phillipines as a resource.

Right: The Phillipines should become the 49th State.

Socialism:

Left: Socialism is great - we should abandon capitalism.

Center-Left: Socialism has ideas which we can learn from.

Center: Socialism is an untried economic experiment.

Center-Right: Socialism is contrary to the American way.

Right: Socialism is a threat to our Democracy.

Unemployment:

Left: Large federal aid programs.

Center-Left: Aid for a large number of areas.

Center: Aid for a good number of depressed areas.

Center-Right: Aid for a few depressed areas.

Right: No federal stimulus is necessary.

A few notes now:

We will have to start from scratch on Latin America, Prohibition, and Gold Standard, because they did not exist as issues in the 2004 version of the scenario. Also, I just copied and pasted all of this information from the issues file for the 2004 version. I did not check for typos, so if we do use any of these exact descriptions, we will need to proof-read them. And finally, a note for anyone who contributes that may not be familiar with P4E 2004: The old version of the game only had 5 issue positions instead of 7. So we will have to modify/add to these lists.

Okay, how do we work from here?

[mahaadoxyz]

You've got the "left" position kind of sounding Communist, actually... most of the "left" positions on that list I would put as "far-left," and likewise with some of the "right" positions becoming "far-right." Have you got judicial independence on there? That was one of the biggest schisms between Taft and Roosevelt, with Roosevelt wanting to make judges more elected etc. and Taft, the future Chief Justice, wanting to protect the judiciary.

[ScottM]

You've got the "left" position kind of sounding Communist, actually... most of the "left" positions on that list I would put as "far-left," and likewise with some of the "right" positions becoming "far-right." Have you got judicial independence on there? That was one of the biggest schisms between Taft and Roosevelt, with Roosevelt wanting to make judges more elected etc. and Taft, the future Chief Justice, wanting to protect the judiciary.

I agree that a lot of the left/right positions fit far left/far right. Look at the right position on Women's Suffrage, for example. The judge issue is a good one. I don't know why I didn't think of that one myself. Any suggestions as to what it should replace? Sometimes 18 issues just aren't enough...

[mahaadoxyz]

You could try making Women's Suffrage into Women's Rights, with some of the right and far-right positions wanting to deny women other rights, like working etc.

[Lahbas]

I had a Beta version of the scenario ready some time ago, but since that was on the laptop that got wiped, well.......

Anyway, what I do know should be included is La Follete's "planned" third party run. Supposably, Ole' Bob was going to run on the Progressive Party ticket in 1912, or something along those lines, and only didn't follow through because Roosevelt ended up absorbing his base, and for the most part his party. In my scenario, I had Roosevelt by default running in the Republican Primaries, and La Follete in both the Republican and Progressive by default (at this stage, only player intervention could have resulted in his victory in the Republican primaries). Something to keep in mind.

Also, I never worked out how I was going to model the caucus system, and by extentsion the convention. In the Republican Race, while Taft had a comfortable lead in the delegate count on paper, he would jump ship after losing a number of primaries to Roosevelt (The only one he won historically was in New York; also Nevada and Massachusetts apparently). I wished for the something more fluid, but that seemed rather improbable with the current AI set up the way it is. Since there were only about four primaries in the Democratic race, there were few if any problems there. What I had wanted to do was initially put Roosevelt in the lead on paper, and then have most of the endorsers going to Taft, giving him footsoldiers and momentum in all the caucus states shortly before they voted, to more properly represent the "theft". I might help pick up the project again myself in due time.

[ScottM]

Sorry I haven't been here to contribute for a few days. Been kinda busy.

All the "party-switching" possibilities do make this one pretty hairy. I don't know if there really is a satisfactory way to pull this one off right now. Hopefully we'll have some new features in P4E12 that will make such scenarios easier to accurately create. But, in the mean time, I'm open to any and all suggestions as to the best way to do it.