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United States 1824


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This project was inspired some time ago when someone brought up using the 'jungle primaries' bug; that is, having a party's convention be outside the scope of the game so all the primary candidates for that party run in the general election; as an exploit. Seeing the Green Party suffer such an issue (unintentially) in my 2016 scenario and all three of it's candidates running in the GE (until I fixed it) brought it further back to mind. This scenario features two parties (and only because two is the minimum):

Democratic-Republican

This party has no convention within the timeframe of the scenario, and thus all four candidates will run in the GE. You're meant to play one of the Democratic-Republican canddiates:

-Military Governor of Florida Andrew Jackson of Tennessee

-Secretary of State John Quincy Adams of Massachusetts

-Secretary of the Treasury William Harris Crawford of Georgia

-Speaker of the House Henry Clay of Kentucky

The second party (a filler party as the game won't load unless you have two) is the Delaware Federalists, with Thomas Clayton, who are only on the ballot in Delaware, and not even particularly strong there.

I need some help on issues, endorsers, and events, if anyone can offer it.

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  • 5 months later...

John Calhoun might also be a good candidate for a second party. He was initially in the race, but then dropped out and supported Jackson.

Interestingly, both Jackson's and Adams' electors voted for Calhoun, enabling him to become VP no matter which of them won. Other VP candidates included Nathan Sanford, Nathaniel Macon, and Crawford's VP candidate, Albert Gallatin. I wonder if it is at all possible to simulate Calhoun being on two different tickets at the same time.

Some issues for if and when this gets started:

Tariffs

Nullification

Internal Improvements

Slavery

Monroe Doctrine

Industry

British/French Relations

Suffrage

Manifest Destiny

Patronage

Second Bank Of The United States

States' Rights

Native Americans

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John Calhoun might also be a good candidate for a second party. He was initially in the race, but then dropped out and supported Jackson.

Interestingly, both Jackson's and Adams' electors voted for Calhoun, enabling him to become VP no matter which of them won. Other VP candidates included Nathan Sanford, Nathaniel Macon, and Crawford's VP candidate, Albert Gallatin. I wonder if it is at all possible to simulate Calhoun being on two different tickets at the same time.

Some issues for if and when this gets started:

Tariffs

Nullification

Internal Improvements

Slavery

Monroe Doctrine

Industry

British/French Relations

Suffrage

Manifest Destiny

Patronage

Second Bank Of The United States

States' Rights

Native Americans

Do candidates choose a veep in a jungles primary, though?

Good issues there. I will need a few more, though (Florida status?).

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No, they don't. There are no running-mates in the jungle primary setup. Which, interestingly... Hmmm, that's actually interesting, since it's a way to avoid the running-mate conundrum.

Actually, it's a little weird, I think. If you have primaries in the time-frame, but not the convention, then if one player gets a majority of delegates that can make an Offer if running-mate, but that's the only way it'll happen. So you could get one candidate with a running-mate and another without. Weird. I like the idea, though. It's perfect.

OOH! Maybe it would also work for 1860? i.e., even though there *was* a Democratic convention in 1860, it didn't really work, so maybe have Douglas win the Northern states overwhelmingly, Breckinridge win the Southern states, and jungle-primary it?

You can separate Britain and France as issues, if you want, I'd say.

As best I know, there is no way to make the game "know" that the same person is in two different places. For instance, I'll sometimes make an Endorser out of someone who is running, and occasionally they endorse a different candidate. Now, you could put Calhoun in as the VP choice for both Adams and Jackson, and just treat one of them as Adams Calhoun and the other as Jackson Calhoun. But in a jungle primary it's moot, so whatever!

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No, they don't. There are no running-mates in the jungle primary setup. Which, interestingly... Hmmm, that's actually interesting, since it's a way to avoid the running-mate conundrum.

Actually, it's a little weird, I think. If you have primaries in the time-frame, but not the convention, then if one player gets a majority of delegates that can make an Offer if running-mate, but that's the only way it'll happen. So you could get one candidate with a running-mate and another without. Weird. I like the idea, though. It's perfect.

OOH! Maybe it would also work for 1860? i.e., even though there *was* a Democratic convention in 1860, it didn't really work, so maybe have Douglas win the Northern states overwhelmingly, Breckinridge win the Southern states, and jungle-primary it?

You can separate Britain and France as issues, if you want, I'd say.

As best I know, there is no way to make the game "know" that the same person is in two different places. For instance, I'll sometimes make an Endorser out of someone who is running, and occasionally they endorse a different candidate. Now, you could put Calhoun in as the VP choice for both Adams and Jackson, and just treat one of them as Adams Calhoun and the other as Jackson Calhoun. But in a jungle primary it's moot, so whatever!

I still think the best way to make 1860 work is to divide the Democrats into two different parties - Northern and Southern Democrats. Both factions had separate conventions, and both nominees had their own running mates. So it makes the most sense.

This conveniently solves the Calhoun problem, although he should still be an off by default candidate, since he ran and then dropped out.

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I think my point about 1860 is just that while there were two different conventions, there hadn't been planning to be, so it feels a little weird to have the two parties separated from the beginning.

The real way to make 1860 would be to have the "Lieberman" option of having a defeated candidate run as an Independent. Then you could set Douglas as the favorite to win, and have Breckinridge "walk out" and run as a third party, which is what happened anyway. You could maybe even set it that if Douglas lost, he'd run as an Independent.

All of that, however, is irrelevant for 1824. One piece of advice is to be careful whether you put the primaries in the time frame or not. I think there might be arguments for each case, but the two options have somewhat different results, I'd say.

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I think my point about 1860 is just that while there were two different conventions, there hadn't been planning to be, so it feels a little weird to have the two parties separated from the beginning.

The real way to make 1860 would be to have the "Lieberman" option of having a defeated candidate run as an Independent. Then you could set Douglas as the favorite to win, and have Breckinridge "walk out" and run as a third party, which is what happened anyway. You could maybe even set it that if Douglas lost, he'd run as an Independent.

All of that, however, is irrelevant for 1824. One piece of advice is to be careful whether you put the primaries in the time frame or not. I think there might be arguments for each case, but the two options have somewhat different results, I'd say.

What is the exact effect of including or not including primaries in a no-convention system?

And should Calhoun's party be called the Nullifiers, even though they didn't formally exist until the 1830's? Also, if he's off by default, I should probably include the Delaware Federalists as a placeholding party to make the game actually work (you do require at least two parties).

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Okay, well, and I'm not entirely certain about this, but I think that if you include the primaries you might run somewhat of a risk of having candidates drop out or endorse one another. Say, for instance, the D-R primaries ended up with the following delegate array:

Jackson 40%

Adams 30%

Clay 20%

Crawford 10%

I think there would be a good chance that Crawford might drop out. If you don't make the primaries actually happen, none of the candidates would drop out. Now, I'm not sure of this. I think I remember that when I "accidentally" gave the 2012 Republicans a jungle primary all ten candidates stayed through until the general election (allowing Obama to win every state, which was pretty cool...), even though the individual primary contests had happened.

The other difference is that I think that if you allow the primary in State X to happen, it finalizes the vote in that state. So if on primary day the vote was Jackson 40%, Adams 30%, Clay 20%, Crawford 10% in such-and-such a state, and then in the general-election the D-R's get 90%, you would automatically have a 36%-27%-18%-9% split among those candidates, no matter what had happened between primary and general election. In fact, come to think of it, this fact makes including the primaries a really bad idea for this scenario, doesn't it? You would want the D-R's to be able to jockey for position right up until the end. That's convenient, actually, since it means you don't have to bother with changing the dates on all the primaries!

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  • 1 month later...

I believe I've found the error in this game (it's going to take some redoing of a lot of material to figure out for sure), but, while I try to figure out what's wrong with 1860, I've returned to (hopefully) fix this one. I should get this done (fingers crossed and knock on wood) soon.

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Probably the former option, as, in my 18th and 19th Century scenarios, I give most candidates a Stamina of 1 anyways to represent the difficulties of actively campaigning in that day (this allows Douglas in 1860 to stand out with his Stamina of 3, making his assertive speaking tour truly a marvel of it's time).

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Probably the former option, as, in my 18th and 19th Century scenarios, I give most candidates a Stamina of 1 anyways to represent the difficulties of actively campaigning in that day (this allows Douglas in 1860 to stand out with his Stamina of 3, making his assertive speaking tour truly a marvel of it's time).

In this case, will the game start in 1823, since that's when he had his stroke? Or 1824, with the stroke "happening" at the beginning?

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Good news! The error that was plaguing this scenario has now been overcome! It is now actually playable (at least past the first few turns; I haven't yet tried further). I just need to add endorsers and events, and it'll be ready for beta playtest.

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Good news! The error that was plaguing this scenario has now been overcome! It is now actually playable (at least past the first few turns; I haven't yet tried further). I just need to add endorsers and events, and it'll be ready for beta playtest.

Excellent! Are you accounting for the fact that not all states voted on the same day?

And do you need assistance with endorsers or events?

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Excellent! Are you accounting for the fact that not all states voted on the same day?

And do you need assistance with endorsers or events?

I'm not really sure how I actually could account for different states voting on different days. I think I'll just have to settle for election night being Dec. 2, 1824, when the very last of the polls closed.

As for help with events and endorsers, yes I will need help, thank-you kindly in advance! :)

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I'm not really sure how I actually could account for different states voting on different days. I think I'll just have to settle for election night being Dec. 2, 1824, when the very last of the polls closed.

As for help with events and endorsers, yes I will need help, thank-you kindly in advance! :)

Since there aren't going to be any VPs, I figure the VP candidates can just be Crusaders for their candidates.

It is difficult to find out who endorsed which candidate back then, and I haven't been able to find any newspaper endorsements yet. Some of these endorsements I know with 100% certainty and some are educated guesses.

Crusaders:

John C. Calhoun - Andrew Jackson, possibly John Quincy Adams as well (he endorsed Jackson)

Nathaniel Macon - Andrew Jackson

Martin Van Buren - William Crawford (Albert Gallatin was the caucus choice for VP but he withdrew)

Thurlow Weed (not VP candidate but influential in this election) - John Quincy Adams

Endorsers:

John Adams - John Quincy Adams

Thomas Jefferson - William Crawford

James Madison - William Crawford

Richard Rush - John Quincy Adams

Albert Gallatin - William Crawford

Governor William Carroll (Tennessee) - Andrew Jackson, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Representative James Buchanan (Pennsylvania) - Andrew Jackson

Tennessee Representative James K. Polk (Tennessee) - Andrew Jackson

Virginia Delegate John Tyler (Virginia) - William Crawford, also leaning towards John Quincy Adams

Retired General William Henry Harrison (Ohio) - Henry Clay

Governor Oliver Wolcott Jr. (Connecticut) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

William Eustis (Massachusetts) - John Quincy Adams

Senator Daniel Webster (Massachusetts) - John Quincy Adams

Governor William Giles (Virginia) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Andrew Jackson

Former Representative John Sergeant (Pennsylvania) - Henry Clay

New Jersey Attorney General Theodore Frelinghuysen (New Jersey) - Henry Clay

Representative Thomas Metcalfe (Kentucky) - Henry Clay

Events:

September 1823 - William Crawford suffers stroke

December 2, 1823 - President Monroe introduces Monroe Doctrine (should give momentum to Adams, since he wrote most of it)

February 14, 1824 - Congressional nominating caucus endorses William Crawford for president

March 4, 1824 - Pennsylvania Convention nominates Andrew Jackson for president & John Calhoun for VP, Calhoun withdraws from presidential race and endorses Jackson

March 11, 1824 - US Bureau of Indian Affairs is created

August 16, 1824 - Lafayette visits United States

Finally, you can find the breakdown of state popular and legislative votes here:

http://www.presidentelect.org/e1824.html

I'll let you know if I find anything else that could be helpful.

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Since there aren't going to be any VPs, I figure the VP candidates can just be Crusaders for their candidates.

It is difficult to find out who endorsed which candidate back then, and I haven't been able to find any newspaper endorsements yet. Some of these endorsements I know with 100% certainty and some are educated guesses.

Crusaders:

John C. Calhoun - Andrew Jackson, possibly John Quincy Adams as well (he endorsed Jackson)

Nathaniel Macon - Andrew Jackson

Martin Van Buren - William Crawford (Albert Gallatin was the caucus choice for VP but he withdrew)

Thurlow Weed (not VP candidate but influential in this election) - John Quincy Adams

Endorsers:

John Adams - John Quincy Adams

Thomas Jefferson - William Crawford

James Madison - William Crawford

Richard Rush - John Quincy Adams

Albert Gallatin - William Crawford

Governor William Carroll (Tennessee) - Andrew Jackson, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Representative James Buchanan (Pennsylvania) - Andrew Jackson

Tennessee Representative James K. Polk (Tennessee) - Andrew Jackson

Virginia Delegate John Tyler (Virginia) - William Crawford, also leaning towards John Quincy Adams

Retired General William Henry Harrison (Ohio) - Henry Clay

Governor Oliver Wolcott Jr. (Connecticut) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

William Eustis (Massachusetts) - John Quincy Adams

Senator Daniel Webster (Massachusetts) - John Quincy Adams

Governor William Giles (Virginia) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Andrew Jackson

Former Representative John Sergeant (Pennsylvania) - Henry Clay

New Jersey Attorney General Theodore Frelinghuysen (New Jersey) - Henry Clay

Representative Thomas Metcalfe (Kentucky) - Henry Clay

Events:

September 1823 - William Crawford suffers stroke

December 2, 1823 - President Monroe introduces Monroe Doctrine (should give momentum to Adams, since he wrote most of it)

February 14, 1824 - Congressional nominating caucus endorses William Crawford for president

March 4, 1824 - Pennsylvania Convention nominates Andrew Jackson for president & John Calhoun for VP, Calhoun withdraws from presidential race and endorses Jackson

March 11, 1824 - US Bureau of Indian Affairs is created

August 16, 1824 - Lafayette visits United States

Finally, you can find the breakdown of state popular and legislative votes here:

http://www.presidentelect.org/e1824.html

I'll let you know if I find anything else that could be helpful.

This is all good stuff! Should I include the governors and/or Federal lawmakers not on that list, for a more complete representation, or stick to the list above as a definitive source? Plus, how is the search for newspapers going?

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John Adams should be so completely decided in favor of JQA that it's impossible to move him away from that position. Unfortunately, I've seen some "decided" endorsers endorse other people. I might include all the governors etc. and just make guesses about them; I usually like to include at least governors and Senators in my scenarios.

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This is all good stuff! Should I include the governors and/or Federal lawmakers not on that list, for a more complete representation, or stick to the list above as a definitive source? Plus, how is the search for newspapers going?

If you can find out which governors/lawmakers endorsed which candidate, sure. I added the ones above because I was reasonably certain of their endorsements. There were some odd cross-endorsements in this election, so I don't want to wrongly assume which governors endorsed each of the four candidates.

I found a couple of newspapers and some more endorsers. It's not easy, though. In a lot of cases I have to make educated guesses.

I found a source for some of them. http://www.readex.com/readex/PDF/EANMicro%20Selected%20Descriptions.pdf

Endorsers:

Senator John H. Eaton (Tennessee) - Andrew Jackson

Senator Richard M. Johnson (Kentucky) - Andrew Jackson

Senator Isham Talbot (Kentucky) - Henry Clay

Representative Samuel D. Ingham (Pennsylvania) - Andrew Jackson

Senator William Findlay (Pennsylvania) - Andrew Jackson, also leaning towards Crawford

Senator Walter Lowrie (Pennsylvania) - William Crawford

Representative John Randolph (Virginia) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Jackson

Senator James Barbour (Virginia) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Senator Elijah Mills (Massachusetts) - John Quincy Adams

Senator James Lloyd (Massachusetts) - John Quincy Adams

Senator Samuel Bell (New Hampshire) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Senator John Parrott (New Hampshire) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Senator James De Wolf (Rhode Island) - William Crawford

Senator Nehemiah Knight (Rhode Island) - William Crawford

Senator Horatio Seymour (Vermont) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Senator William Palmer (Vermont) - John Quincy Adams

Senator Mahlon Dickerson (New Jersey) - Andrew Jackson

Senator Joseph McIlvane (New Jersey) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Senator Ethan Brown (Ohio) - Andrew Jackson

Senator Benjamin Ruggles (Ohio) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Senator Thomas Clayton (Delaware) - John Quincy Adams

Senator Nicholas Van Dyke (Delaware) - John Quincy Adams

Senator Robert Hayne (South Carolina) - Andrew Jackson

Senate President Pro Tempore John Gaillard (South Carolina) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Andrew Jackson

Senator John Branch (North Carolina) - Andrew Jackson

Senator John Elliott (Georgia) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Andrew Jackson

Senator Nicholas Ware (Georgia) - William Crawford (died September 7, 1824)

Senator William R. King (Alabama) - Andrew Jackson

Senator William Kelly (Alabama) - Andrew Jackson

Senator Thomas Hart Benton (Missouri) - Andrew Jackson, also leaning towards William Crawford

Senator David Barton (Missouri) - John Quincy Adams

Senator James Noble (Indiana) - Henry Clay, also leaning towards John Quincy Adams

Senator Waller Taylor (Indiana) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Senator Jesse Thomas (Illinois) - William Crawford

Senator John McLean (Illinois) - William Crawford (didn't take office until November 23, 1824)

Senator Samuel Smith (Maryland) - Andrew Jackson

Senator Edward Lloyd (Maryland) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Andrew Jackson

Senator John Holmes (Maine) - William Crawford, also leaning towards John Quincy Adams

Senator John Chandler (Maine) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Andrew Jackson

Senator David Holmes (Mississippi) - Andrew Jackson

Senator Thomas Hill Williams (Mississippi) - Andrew Jackson

Senator Henry Edwards (Connecticut) - Andrew Jackson

Senator James Lanman (Connecticut) - William Crawford

Senator Charles Dominique Joseph Bouligny (Louisiana) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Senator Josiah Johnston (Louisiana) - John Quincy Adams

Governor Joseph Desha (Kentucky) - Henry Clay

Governor William Hendricks (Indiana) - Henry Clay, also leaning towards John Quincy Adams

Governor Jeremiah Morrow (Ohio) - Henry Clay, also leaning towards John Quincy Adams

Governor Isaac Williamson (New Jersey) - John Quincy Adams

Governor Samuel Paynter (Delaware) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Governor George Troup (Georgia) - William Crawford

Governor Cornelius Peter Van Ness (Vermont) - Andrew Jackson

Governor Albion Parris (Maine) - Andrew Jackson

Governor Israel Pickens (Alabama) - Andrew Jackson

Governor Walter Leake (Mississippi) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Andrew Jackson

Governor John Lyde Wilson (South Carolina) - William Crawford

Governor John Andrew Schulze (Pennsylvania) - Henry Clay, also leaning towards John Quincy Adams

Newspapers:

Richmond Enquirer (Virginia) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Jackson

Knoxville Register (Tennessee) - Andrew Jackson

Nashville Whig (Tennessee) - Henry Clay, also leaning towards John Quincy Adams

The New Hampshire Gazette (New Hampshire) - Andrew Jackson, also leaning towards William Crawford

Nashville Gazette (Tennessee) - Andrew Jackson

New York Evening Post (New York) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Hartford Courant (Connecticut) - John Quincy Adams

Hartford Mirror (Connecticut) - John Quincy Adams

Nashville Republican (Tennessee) - Andrew Jackson

Independent Chronicle and Boston Patriot (Massachusetts) - John Quincy Adams

Kentucky Gazette (Kentucky) - Henry Clay

City Of Washington Gazette (DC/Virginia or Maryland instead) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Andrew Jackson

Daily National Intelligencer (DC/was mailed nationwide) - Henry Clay

Boston Intelligencer (Massachusetts) - John Quincy Adams

Christian Watchman (Massachusetts) - John Quincy Adams

New Hamphire Patriot And State Gazette (New Hamphsire) - Andrew Jackson

Freeman's Journal (New York) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

New York American (New York) - John Quincy Adams

Readinger Adler (Pennsylvania) - Andrew Jackson, also leaning towards William Crawford

Village Record (Pennsylvania) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Rhode Island Republican (Rhode Island) - William Crawford, also leaning towards Andrew Jackson

Vermont Intelligencer (Vermont) - John Quincy Adams, also leaning towards Henry Clay

Genius Of Liberty (Virginia) - William Crawford

That's all I could find. If I'm missing newspapers or endorsers, it's because I wasn't sure who they endorsed in this election.

Edited by darkmoon72
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I found two more events.

April 30, 1824

Monroe signs the General Survey Bill, departing from his opposition to congressionally sponsored internal improvements. The United States Army Corps of Engineers prepare to produce surveys, plans, and estimates to improve navigation. Monroe subsequently purchases 1,500 shares of stock in the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal Co. for $300,000.

May 22, 1824

Monroe signs the Tariff of 1824 into law, implementing protectionist measures in support of local manufactures and goods. Complaints arise in the South with cotton-growers fearful of British retaliation for the increase in price. Northern manufacturers are pleased with the law.

And two more endorsers:

US Representative John Floyd (Virginia) - William Crawford

US Representative Philip Barbour (Virginia) - Andrew Jackson

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