Jump to content
270soft Forum

United States Presdential Election 1860


Recommended Posts

Reverse left and right for, it looks like, just about all of those. The GOP was the progressive party in 1860, which is what left- and right-wing historically refer to. It is no reflection on current politics to give the Republican candidates of a century-and-a-half ago center-left and left-wing positions. That's just how it was in that context. In fact, modern US conservatism (or at least from whenever it was I took my last poli-sci course) is considered to be "Classical Liberalism".

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 172
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Some of my ideas include: -The Republicans will not be on the ballot in 13 Southern states. -All of a party's primaries and their nomination will be on the same day (the day of that party's conventi

Strangely, the total number of delegates comes out to 300, not including alternates. I wonder if one or more state delegations failed to attend, or withdrew from, the convention after that secretary's

That's too bad. I could try my hand at the remaining issues, if you don't think you'll be able to finish them.

Expansion of Slavery

Far-Left: Create a consitutional ammendement making slavery legal in all states.

Left: Create a law stating that slavery is legal in every new state to join the union and that no state that has not already done so may pass a law outlawing slavery.

Center-Left: Require every new state to allow slavery

Center: Require a referendum in every state on slavery and that will determine whether or not it is legal.

Center-Right: Allow states to choose for themselves.

Right: Ban slavery in every new state to join the Union but allow those who already have it to keep it. (Lincoln)

Far-Right: Ban slavery in all states.

I think you've got that a little effed. Requiring slavery in all new states isn't Center-anything, and your Far-right position turns back into abolition, which is separate. The problem is that expansion and the Compromise of 1850 are treading on a lot of the same ground. If you're set on keeping the issues as they are, here's what I'd do:

Far-"left" and "left" can stay more or less the same, though I'd consider spelling constitutional amendment differently.

Center-"left" would be something on the order of "allow all states to decide for themselves"

Center could be "allow all new states to decide for themselves"

Center-"right" could be something similar to "Stick to the Missouri Compromise line when admitting new states"

"Right" - would be essentially what it is now

Far-"Right" would be John Brown

I'd be a bit more conservative on where you put Lincoln too, since he was, in 1860, fairly moderate as an abolitionist. Seward was further to the "right" than he was, and if you put Seward all the way on the Far-fringe, then it leaves no room for the true radicals, not necessarily as candidates, but as endorsers or whatever. The way to go, on most of the slavery issues, is to make Lincoln Center-right (I'd say, to nitpick, center-left, but it is what it is), Seward as Right.

Link to post
Share on other sites
thanks i will take that into account. what should i do for primaries? make it up?

For the GOP and Northern Dems, I'd try to find the dates of the state conventions. That's fudgable to some extent, but between the mighty Google and Team of Rivals, you could probably get a decent idea. On the GOP side, you wouldn't need to do a primary for any of the states where Lincoln wasn't on the ballot. The Southern Dems, you could probably get away with slapping all their caucuses on the same day, either on April 30th (the walkout of the original convention) or their own later convention in June. The Constitutional Union Party, you could probably throw all on the same day too, their convention apparently ended on May 9th.

Link to post
Share on other sites
For the GOP and Northern Dems, I'd try to find the dates of the state conventions. That's fudgable to some extent, but between the mighty Google and Team of Rivals, you could probably get a decent idea. On the GOP side, you wouldn't need to do a primary for any of the states where Lincoln wasn't on the ballot. The Southern Dems, you could probably get away with slapping all their caucuses on the same day, either on April 30th (the walkout of the original convention) or their own later convention in June. The Constitutional Union Party, you could probably throw all on the same day too, their convention apparently ended on May 9th.

ok thanks man. What do you think about %'s?

Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you've got that a little effed. Requiring slavery in all new states isn't Center-anything, and your Far-right position turns back into abolition, which is separate. The problem is that expansion and the Compromise of 1850 are treading on a lot of the same ground. If you're set on keeping the issues as they are, here's what I'd do:

Far-"left" and "left" can stay more or less the same, though I'd consider spelling constitutional amendment differently.

Center-"left" would be something on the order of "allow all states to decide for themselves"

Center could be "allow all new states to decide for themselves"

Center-"right" could be something similar to "Stick to the Missouri Compromise line when admitting new states"

"Right" - would be essentially what it is now

Far-"Right" would be John Brown

I'd be a bit more conservative on where you put Lincoln too, since he was, in 1860, fairly moderate as an abolitionist. Seward was further to the "right" than he was, and if you put Seward all the way on the Far-fringe, then it leaves no room for the true radicals, not necessarily as candidates, but as endorsers or whatever. The way to go, on most of the slavery issues, is to make Lincoln Center-right (I'd say, to nitpick, center-left, but it is what it is), Seward as Right.

First off I will probably redo the expansion of slavery issue then. Second I'd say just make up primary dates but spread them out to make it more interesting. % wise this should help at least some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_Republic...onal_Convention

Link to post
Share on other sites
I was thinking of having a virtual deadheat between Seward and Lincoln with Seward a little a head, the Chase/Cameron/Bates in a race for a distant 3rd, similar to the 2008 Democratic Primaries

Have Lincoln and Cameron relations at 100% though. In real life Lincoln basically won because Cameron endorsed him.

Link to post
Share on other sites
ok im really confused...

I think he's saying that should be the results of the primaries going into the convention. Assuming everything shakes down as expected, Seward and Lincoln should usually be the top two candidates, with neither necessarily having an absolute majority. I wish I knew for sure what affects the reapportioning of delegates when either a candidate drops out or during a convention (largely momentum, I'd imagine, with relationship and issue positions maybe playing a part. If anyone knows for sure, that would be an important thing to know for pre-1972 scenarios), so it's hard to say how to model the floor fight. I'd give Lincoln better relationships with the other candidates, to reflect that he was the second choice for supporters of most of the other GOP candidates. Perhaps a big momentum issue right before the convention, too, to reflect the homefield advantage that played a big part. The goal, I'd say would be to model that Seward can win with a big enough plurality going into the convention, but if Lincoln is a close second, he can pull it out. That'll take some trial and error, but it can probably be done.

Regarding the dates for caucuses (I don't know if the game models caucuses and primaries differently, but in case it does, I'd just say to set them all as closed caucuses), it'll take a bit of doing, but I think we can find reasonable dates for the state conventions. For instance, I just googled "1860 state convention" and found a link to a letter sent to Lincoln on 2/13/60 inviting him to the Wisconsin state convention. The letter itself is fairly illegible, but it is a starting point, and took me 5 seconds. In the time it took to type that, I found out that South Carolina held their state convention on 4/16-17/1860. I spent an afternoon last weekend poring over the Time.com archives to find better dates for the 1976 scenario, and could do the same for this one. I'm going in for surgery on Wednesday, so I could probably do some digging while I'm recuperating.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I just saw the phrase "Wednesday the 25th" in that letter to Lincoln, which checking a calendar of 1860 was April, so pencil in 4/25 for the Wisconsin caucus, though Jan 25th was a Wednesday too.

And Alabama seems to have been 1/11

California 2/23

Minnesota (dems, anyway) 1/13

Illinois 5/9

Indiana 1/11

Louisiana 1/24 (source said newly sworn in [as of 1/23] gov. convened state legislature to deal w/ convention. I call it close enough)

Mass. 3/7

Missouri 2/29

Virginia 2/17

Link to post
Share on other sites
I just saw the phrase "Wednesday the 25th" in that letter to Lincoln, which checking a calendar of 1860 was April, so pencil in 4/25 for the Wisconsin caucus, though Jan 25th was a Wednesday too.

And Alabama seems to have been 1/11

California 2/23

Minnesota (dems, anyway) 1/13

Illinois 5/9

Indiana 1/11

Louisiana 1/24 (source said newly sworn in [as of 1/23] gov. convened state legislature to deal w/ convention. I call it close enough)

Mass. 3/7

Missouri 2/29

Virginia 2/17

Although this doesn't directly affect my section thank you very much.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll get back to the map tomorrow sometime. When the issues are done, then the map can be inserted and political units done. Then there's ads, which should likely be newspaper, magazine, and poster (if any other, please tell me), I think. Then political parties and their candidates get done.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...