Patine 385 Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Although Abe Lincoln made an attempt at this scenario by the original P4E 2004 some time ago, I thought I'd try a fresh start. I have some ideas that may smooth over difficulties with the era and it's limits, and I think some of the features of P4E+P 2008 may help. Of course, there are four viable parties, each with several candidates. Republicans Former Representative Abraham Lincoln of Illinois Senator William H Seward of New York Former Governor Salmon P Chase of Ohio Former Representative Edward Bates of Missouri Senator Simon Cameron of Pennsylvania Southern Democrats Vice-President John C Breckinridge of Kentucky Former Secretary of the Treasury James Guthrie of Kentucky Senator Robert Mercer Taliaferro Hunter of Virginia Northern Democrats Senator Stephen A Douglas of Illinois Senator Daniel S Dickinson of New York Senator Joseph Lane of Oregon Former Governor Horatio Seymour of New York Senator Andrew Johnson of Tennessee Constitutional Union Senator John Bell of Tennessee Governor Sam Houston of Texas Issues will include: European Relations Homestead Laws Immigration Industry Pacific Railroad Secession Slavery (very high priority) States' Rights Tarriffs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patine 385 Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Some of my ideas include: -The Republicans will not be on the ballot in 13 Southern states. -All of a party's primaries and their nomination will be on the same day (the day of that party's convention), with a short campaigning period for the candidates before that. -New Jersey will be divided into two regions whose EV's must be won seperately, to represent how it historically split it's EV's. -The Republicans and Northern Democrats will have significantly more CP's than the Southern Democrats and Constitutional Union to represent Douglas' many speaches and public appearances, which the other three candidates rarely bothered with, and the Republicans' use of early foot soldiers, the 'Wide Awakes,' which had little equivalent among the other parties. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WagonAngle 35 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I'd think about putting in an event to represent the bellwether state elections (which I believe were in mid-to-late-September). That was when Douglas realized he couldn't win and began going around pleading that slave states not secede. I'd say a massive momentum boost to the GOP, as well as a profile boost to a Secession issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe Lincoln 9 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 -All of a party's primaries and their nomination will be on the same day (the day of that party's convention), with a short campaigning period for the candidates before that. While this would be more realistic it would also be very boring. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patine 385 Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 While this would be more realistic it would also be very boring. Maybe you're right. Perhaps more drawn-out and modern-style primaries for each of the four parties would keep players' interests longer and allow a more enjoyable game. It's certainly not the only thing I'd be fudging on (inter-state travel time comes to mind). I also considered having Jefferson Davis as an 'off by default' Southern Democratic candidate who, if turned on, would be very tough and extreme on the Secession, Slavery, and States' Rights issues. Any thoughts on that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe Lincoln 9 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Maybe you're right. Perhaps more drawn-out and modern-style primaries for each of the four parties would keep players' interests longer and allow a more enjoyable game. It's certainly not the only thing I'd be fudging on (inter-state travel time comes to mind).I also considered having Jefferson Davis as an 'off by default' Southern Democratic candidate who, if turned on, would be very tough and extreme on the Secession, Slavery, and States' Rights issues. Any thoughts on that? Sounds good and do you want any help with this because if so I'm ready and willing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
heat332 0 Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 yea i would love to help on anything too (pref. candidates =)) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
heat332 0 Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 and just adding, Seward was a bit of a force for the Republicans, so he could easily have carried much of the NE for the Reps Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe Lincoln 9 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Ok I am offically doing the issues on this one Here's what I have so far. 1. Slavery 2. States Rights 3. Tariffs 4. Taxes 5. Compromise of 1850 6. Dred Scott Case 7. Military 8. Immigration 9. Economy 10. Labor Rights 11. Gold Standard 12. Industry 13. American-British Relations 14. Mexico 15. Possible Succession 16. Fugative Slave Laws 17. Executive Power This is all I have for now so does anyone have any suggestions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WagonAngle 35 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Secession and Fugitive. Beyond that, no suggestions Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patine 385 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Thanks for the help, people. I appreciate it. I would add the Pacific Railway, as there was a dispute I recall (overshadowed historically by other issues) over whether such a railway should go through the North or South before heading West. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe Lincoln 9 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 New List so Far 1. Slavery 2. States Rights 3. Tariffs 4. Taxes 5. Compromise of 1850 6. Dred Scott Case 7. Military 8. Immigration 9. Economy 10. Labor Rights 11. Gold Standard 12. Industry 13. American-British Relations 14. Mexico 15. Possible Secession 16. Fugitive Slave Laws 17. Executive Power 18. Pacific Railroad 19. Religion Quote Link to post Share on other sites
heat332 0 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 how about Posse Comitatus, i know it wasn't big, but there's not much else Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe Lincoln 9 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 How many are there I need again (I can't activate my campaigns forever). Anyway Habius Corpos will be a good one I guess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patine 385 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 We need 22. They all look good so far! (I can't activate my campaigns forever). Fortunately, I can activate my Camapigns Forever, so I'll compile the shared work into the actual game files. I've begun on the map and Step One: Scenario in Camapigns Forever, so, as issues are the next step, hashing them out early will be a good idea. I'll try to find the 1860 census results to do Step Three: Political Units in terms of populations. On the topic of Step One, though, who are some big newspapers and political magazines of the day to serve as interviewers? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe Lincoln 9 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 We need 22. They all look good so far!Fortunately, I can activate my Camapigns Forever, so I'll compile the shared work into the actual game files. I've begun on the map and Step One: Scenario in Camapigns Forever, so, as issues are the next step, hashing them out early will be a good idea. I'll try to find the 1860 census results to do Step Three: Political Units in terms of populations. On the topic of Step One, though, who are some big newspapers and political magazines of the day to serve as interviewers? Some interviewers: - New York Associated Press (Center, Medium Visibility, Medium contensionsy (sp?) - New York Tribune (Center-Left, High, Medium) - New York Times (Center-Right, Low, High) That's all I could find so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
heat332 0 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 We need 22. They all look good so far!Fortunately, I can activate my Camapigns Forever, so I'll compile the shared work into the actual game files. I've begun on the map and Step One: Scenario in Camapigns Forever, so, as issues are the next step, hashing them out early will be a good idea. I'll try to find the 1860 census results to do Step Three: Political Units in terms of populations. On the topic of Step One, though, who are some big newspapers and political magazines of the day to serve as interviewers? Harpers i think, and some philly and New York newspapers. And i agreed to help out with the candidates, so whenever ur ready for that just email it over and il start working Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WagonAngle 35 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 I don't know that Habeas Corpus was a big issue until during the war when Lincoln suspended it. If you're short an issue, slavery could be broken up into Expansion of Slavery and Abolition. Not everyone felt the same about both aspects of the debate, though it would also be easy enough to combine them into one scale: Far Left would be for immediate abolition of slavery. Left would be for abolition of slavery, with compensation given to slaveowners. Center-Left would be for containment of slavery, with the idea that it would die on its own (which I believe was where Lincoln stood early on) Center would be for the status quo (Salmon Chase, probably) Center-Right would be for the maintenance of slavery where it exists and in territories that want it (popular sovereignty) Right and Far Right could be various degrees of Hell No. That would of course be if slavery was kept as one single issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe Lincoln 9 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 I don't know that Habeas Corpus was a big issue until during the war when Lincoln suspended it. If you're short an issue, slavery could be broken up into Expansion of Slavery and Abolition. Not everyone felt the same about both aspects of the debate, though it would also be easy enough to combine them into one scale:Far Left would be for immediate abolition of slavery. Left would be for abolition of slavery, with compensation given to slaveowners. Center-Left would be for containment of slavery, with the idea that it would die on its own (which I believe was where Lincoln stood early on) Center would be for the status quo (Salmon Chase, probably) Center-Right would be for the maintenance of slavery where it exists and in territories that want it (popular sovereignty) Right and Far Right could be various degrees of Hell No. That would of course be if slavery was kept as one single issue. Perhaps this is a good idea. And Habeas Corpus would work as a minor issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe Lincoln 9 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Alright this is what I have. Does anyone think anything should be taken away or added. If not I will start creating postions for the issues. 1. Expansion of Slavery 2. States Rights 3. Tariffs 4. Taxes 5. Compromise of 1850 6. Dred Scott Case 7. Military 8. Immigration 9. Economy 10. Labor Rights 11. Gold Standard 12. Industry 13. American-British Relations 14. Mexico 15. Possible Secession 16. Fugitive Slave Laws 17. Executive Power 18. Pacific Railroad 19. Religion 20. Abolition 21. Popular Sovereignty 22. Monroe Doctrine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
heat332 0 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 Alright this is what I have. Does anyone think anything should be taken away or added. If not I will start creating postions for the issues.1. Expansion of Slavery 2. States Rights 3. Tariffs 4. Taxes 5. Compromise of 1850 6. Dred Scott Case 7. Military 8. Immigration 9. Economy 10. Labor Rights 11. Gold Standard 12. Industry 13. American-British Relations 14. Mexico 15. Possible Secession 16. Fugitive Slave Laws 17. Executive Power 18. Pacific Railroad 19. Religion 20. Abolition 21. Habeas Corpus 22. Monroe Doctrine looks good, get started! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
heat332 0 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 wait how about popular sovereignty? we could do it instead of Habeas Corpus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patine 385 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 I'd go with popular sovereignty as an issue if Habeus Corpus wasn't actually an issue till the war. Otherwise, I think the list is great! Feel free to get started on positions, and then, when you're done, I'll copy them into the game files. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe Lincoln 9 Posted January 17, 2009 Report Share Posted January 17, 2009 I'd go with popular sovereignty as an issue if Habeus Corpus wasn't actually an issue till the war. Otherwise, I think the list is great! Feel free to get started on positions, and then, when you're done, I'll copy them into the game files. Ok I will start later tonight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Abe Lincoln 9 Posted January 18, 2009 Report Share Posted January 18, 2009 I will update this as I do more. I will put canidates names next to issues as I figure them out. Postions Expansion of Slavery Far-Left: Create an ammendment to the constiution protecting slavery and forcing all states to make it legal. Left: Allow states that currently have outlawed slavery to keep such laws but pass a bill stating that slavery is legal in all new states. Center-left: Allow all states to decide for themselves. Center: Allow all new states to decide for themselves. Center-Right: Stick to the Missouri Compromise line when admitting new states. Right: Allow states where slavery is currently legal to keep it that way for now but all new states must be non-slave. (Lincoln) Far-Right: All new states must outlaw slavery and a gradual reduction of slavery in the current slave states until slavery no longer exists. States Rights Far-Left: The goverment is intruding upon states rights. Rewrite the constituion to eliminate the presidency. Give states the right to succede and overule any federal law. Left: Give states the right to succede and overule any federal law. Center-Left: States should be able to manage their own affairs. Keep Federal goverment as small as possible. Center: Its fine the way it is. Center-Right: States should have certain rights but the federal goverment should be the ultimate athourity. (Lincoln) Right: The United States is one nation and people need to realize that. A small amount of state rights but almost all power rests with the federal goverment. Far-Right: Eliminate states. The USA should be one giant state. Tariffs* Far-Left: Outlaw imports Left: Allow individual states to set their own tariff rates. Center-Left: A single moderate tariff rate but allow states to add to that if they wish. Center: There are more important things to worry about then the tariff system Center-Right: One national tariff rate with a certain percentage going to each state. Right: One very high national rate (Lincoln) Far-Right: Low national tariff rate. Taxes Far-Left: Introduce a large income tax and raise all other tax levels. Left: Moderatly raise most tax levels and introduce an income tax of around 10% Center-Left: Slight raise in most taxes, if necassary a larger raise and a temprorary income tax of 5-10% (Lincoln) Center: Small to moderate raise in some taxes if the need arises otherwise no raises and no income tax. Center-right: Stay at current tax levels no matter what. Right: Lower taxes across the board. Far-Right: Eliminate taxes Compromise of 1850 Far-Left: This "compromise" is an outrage. We can not allow anyone to ban slavery, especially our nations capital and all new states should be forced to allow slavery. Left: This compromise infringes on the rights of the south. Center-Left: Certain sections of this compromise need to be re-written so it is more equal towards the south. Center: The compromise is a good idea and should be left alone. Center-Right: The fugative slave laws in the compromise need to be re-written to make them less harsh. Right: The compromise is simply delaying the fact that one day slavery must be eliminated. (Lincoln) Far-Right: Trash the compromise and invade all slave states. Dred Scott Case Far-Left: The decision does not go far enough. Left: The decision needs to be translated into an ammendment to the consitution so that no congress can ever overturn it. Center-Left: The decision was correct. Center: Whether or not the decision was correct is no business of politicians but the job of lawyers. Center-Right: This decision is much to harsh but their is little to be done now but work for a better decision in the future. Right: This case was an outrage and must be overturned by a consitutional ammendment passed by congress. (Lincoln) Far-Right: This decision must be immediatly overturned and the justices who passed it and any judge or fedral lawyer who supports it dismissed. Military Far-Left: Eliminate the fedral army, replacing it with smaller state controlled armies. Left: Eliminate most of the Federal army and increase the size and independance of state armies, a.k.a. national guards. Center-Left: A small reduction in the size of the Federal Army and more independance for state armies. Center: Keep the army the size it is now. Center-Right: A slight increase in the size of the Federal Army. Right: A realitivly large increase in the size of the Federal Army and a reduction in the size and indepedance of state armies. (Lincoln) Far-Right: Across the board reductions in the size of the military, both federal and state. Immigration Far-Left: Open immigration for any one who want to get in. Left: Less immigration restricitions. Center-Left: Leave immigration laws and restrictions up to the states they are immigrating to. Center: Keep the immigration system the same as it currently is. Center-Right: More restrictions and quotas on immigration. Right: A large ammount of quotas and restriction so as to allow only a small number of immigrants. Far-Right: Outlaw immigration. *During this election this debate was more about states individual tariffs then the actual rates. UPDATED: 11:38 CT 1/18 UPDATED 10:43 PM (CT) 1/18/09 Expansion of Slavery, Dred Scott Case UPDATED 1:47 PM (CT) 1/19/09 Military, Immigration Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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