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West Wing Democratic Primaries - 2006

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Smile smile.

You're no better then klansman in my mind.  Calling people immoral for being who they are is a truly horrible thing.

I feel the same way about gays as I do handicapped people. I feel sorry for them. You like to throw around the word hate, yet very few people actually hate someone, much less a group of people.

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jake i'm glad to see there is somebody else on this board with some common sense (eventhough i don't know about that handicap part)

jo is one of those people who sees things in black and white and doesn't recognize the grey area

my guess his response will be alot of people hate others they just don't know they hate them

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Okay, first off JoSpiv, saying that someone believes homosexuals perform unnatural relations is not "intolerance." Some people happen to believe that sexual relations were designed for men and women only. That's hardly a problem, I hope. Some people view same-sex couples as no more "natural" than man-dog or man-sheep coupling. (I hope it's not intolerant to oppose that?) To me, homosexuality is just a sin, and I follow the love the sinner, hate the sin rule.

So long as we're not talking about resorting to physical violence or simply insulting homosexuals, that's not really a problem.

Secondly, resorting to a "Well, it's just right" argument to magically be in supportive of your set of beliefs (not a knock against them, mind you, I can even see where you're coming from) is a bit weak. By then proceeding to say that anyone who disagrees with you is comparative to Lenin, Hitler, George Wallace, et cetra is just a rhetorical method of skirting the issue.

While I can see how you might see the points are similar, Vegeta as poor as his grammar is, is not advocating segregating the gays (Wallace), killing the gays in extermination camps (Hitler, Lenin), rounding them up in vigilante forces and killing them (Klansmen), and so on and so on. He simply doesn't think homosexuality is natural...and there's actually some good arguments for that. (Biologically, one comes to mind. Same-sex couples can't produce children...sex is designed to produce children.)

Also, I'd recommend that in future arguments you don't say "Well, the majority is sometimes wrong...[enter list of horrible things majority once agreed too]...so I'm right." The argument doesn't compute. The majority also supported FDR, the 20th Amendment to the Constitution, the progressive income tax, Jimmy Carter (in 1976), and so on...all examples which I believe that you particularly would find "good". The majority is sometimes right, it's sometimes wrong.

Just some advice. Hope you take it in good spirits,

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He's not only saying it's unnatuiral, he's saying it's immoral.

And Jake, saying you feel bad for homosexuals is just pitiful.

I honestly feel bad for all you people. The fact that you are willing to say a member of the human race is immoral ebcause tehy engadge in homosexual sex is hateful.

I know no one here wants to kills gays, or segregate them. But hateful comments are horrible as well.

Step back from your religon and what a 2000 year old book told you, and try looking at people as equal. Don't feel bad for someone for being gay, or for being handicaped. Think of them as a human being who is living on this Earth. No gay person is trying to take over the world and force thier ways on you.

Homosexuals were born that way, just as you were born heterosexual. They are attracted to people of the same sex, so to feel good, and feel love they have sex with thoseof the same sex. If they could have kids, beleive me they would. I know many gay people who would make amazing parents. But due to bigotry and hate like we hear here, they are not allowed to adopt in many parts of the nation.

I also don't think I see things as Black and White. What gray area am I missing? I think no one on Earth is immoral for loving who they do, or engadging in sexual relations with that person. I don't think it's unnatrual to do what natrure made you attracted to do.

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He's not only saying it's unnatuiral, he's saying it's immoral.

And Jake, saying you feel bad for homosexuals is just pitiful. 

I honestly feel bad for all you people.  The fact that you are willing to say a member of the human race is immoral ebcause tehy engadge in homosexual sex is hateful. 

I know no one here wants to kills gays, or segregate them. But hateful comments are horrible as well. 

Step back from your religon and what a 2000 year old book told you, and try looking at people as equal.  Don't feel bad for someone for being gay, or for being handicaped.  Think of them as a human being who is living on this Earth.  No gay person is trying to take over the world and force thier ways on you. 

Homosexuals were born that way, just as you were born heterosexual.  They are attracted to people of the same sex, so to feel good, and feel love they have sex with thoseof the same sex. If they could have kids, beleive me they would.  I know many gay people who would make amazing parents.  But due to bigotry and hate like we hear here, they are not allowed to adopt in many parts of the nation.

I also don't think I see things as Black and White.  What gray area am I missing?  I think no one on Earth is immoral for loving who they do, or engadging in sexual relations with that person.  I don't think it's unnatrual to do what natrure made you attracted to do.

Offer some proof that there is a gay gene, and why we haven't found it yet. My theory is that gays are born with a large susceptibility to being gay. A traumatic experience, or string of experiences {maybe a group of guys exclude them in elementary school or they are abused, or maybe their family life isn't good} causes them to become gay.

Also, I don't think being gay is unnatural because a religious book tells me to, I believe it because it is unnatural. It is impossible to preform the main function of sex if you are gay. That alone makes it unnatural. As for it being immoral, it's no more immoral than prostitution or pornography.

As for adoption, how is a child supposed to get the traits and lessons that a mother and father offer them? It's just not natural to have two parents of the same sex, and hasn't been ever before in history.

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I'm happy to hear that Veg(yes I know you were agreeing with Jake, not me, but I'm happy you think Gays can and should be able to raise kids).

Jake, how do you not see the hate in what you say? you're saying that a homosexual is in capable of loving and raising a child. Tell me ONE thing that a homosexual could not do in raising a chidl that a heterosexual could do? Tell me one thing that they are not capabe of doing.

And if you some how think a kid adopted by gay parents will some how "catch" gayness, then you seriously are disturbed.

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Also, I don't think being gay is unnatural because a religious book tells me to, I believe it because it is unnatural. It is impossible to preform the main function of sex if you are gay. That alone makes it unnatural.

The one true function of sex, actually, is the attainment of the orgasm. That's why we keep doing it over and over again...reproduction is an outcome of it.

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guys incase you haven't noticed we are supposed to be making reviews on the President Forever web site in the scenrios section right under the West Wing Democratic Primarys -2006 it says Reviews leading to what i'm posting in now.

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I'm happy to hear that Veg(yes I know you were agreeing with Jake, not me, but I'm happy you think Gays can and should be able to raise kids).

Jake, how do you not see the hate in what you say? you're saying that a homosexual is in capable of loving and raising a child.  Tell me ONE thing that a homosexual could not do in raising a chidl that a heterosexual could do?  Tell me one thing that they are not capabe of doing.

And if you some how think a kid adopted by gay parents will some how "catch" gayness, then you seriously are disturbed.

Okay, first scenario, two fathers. Neither father is able to teach his son how a woman acts or how to relate to a woman. The child will be without a direct female role model at least until he/she has a chance to develop a relationship with a teacher.

Second scenario, two female parents. The boy/girl will not be tought how to act like a man or relate to a man. At least until they have a chance to develop a relationship with a teacher.

These two scenarios illustrate exactly why same-sex couples, for all the love they have for their child, can not raise that child successfully, and give them the things a proper heterosexual family gives them. Say what you want about hatred and bigotry, but be aware that you're just calling people names, not at all proving your point.

Also, to even think that homosexuality is a disease that you can catch, or even think that more than a fringe group of people think that, shows that all you have to offer is ad hominem attacks.

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Okay, first scenario, two fathers. Neither father is able to teach his son how a woman acts or how to relate to a woman. The child will be without a direct female role model at least until he/she has a chance to develop a relationship with a teacher.

Second scenario, two female parents. The boy/girl will not be tought how to act like a man or relate to a man. At least until they have a chance to develop a relationship with a teacher.

so would u say single parents should not be allowed to raise kids?

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so would u say single parents should not be allowed to raise kids?

Notice I didn't say they shouldn't be allowed, I said heterosexual parents raise a child better. The same applies with single parents.

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Notice I didn't say they shouldn't be allowed, I said heterosexual parents raise a child better. The same applies with single parents.

I want facts to back that up.

I find your senarios filled with flaws, and I can see you have a very low estimation of children.

guys incase you haven't noticed we are supposed to be making reviews on the President Forever web site in the scenrios section right under the West Wing Democratic Primarys -2006 it says Reviews leading to what i'm posting in now.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

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To respond to JoSpiv's earlier comments:

The fact that you would ask someone to step away from their religion and dismiss what millions of Americans, including myself, consider the Word of God...well...we have freedom of religion in America, so that's that.

I believe that all human beings are equal. Most Christians do. In fact, we're all equal in our sin, everyone sins at some point or another, and sin is (tah-dah!) immoral.

Lying is immoral, murder is immoral, lust is immoral, and homosexuality is immoral.

I lie. I lust. I'm immoral quite a bit actually.

I am just as horrible a sinner as a gay man from San Francisco or Adolf Hitler, because all sins are just as terrible to the Lord.

Fortunately, God sent His Son to earth to die for us, so that if we confess His Name and ask for forgiveness from our sins, we will be saved. Praise God for sending Jesus to die for us and spare us from an eternity away from Him!

I don't think homosexuality is either natural or moral, I consider it a sin. It's not a sin that I struggle with (neither do I struggle with murder), but it is a sin that millions of Americans can be easily tempted by. We all have weak spots that Satan can strike, and for some people it's homosexuality. It may well be a genetic or chemical deal, but I know that chemical imbalances or genetic predespositions can be defeated....in our choir at church there was a reformed homosexual who turned to the Lord and became straight, for example.

I think that homosexuals are people who are human beings who have to walk this earth, in fact, in that they are tempted with sin, they are most definitely human.

Man wasn't made to sin...we were made to live for eternity with God, as Adam and Eve had in the Garden of Eden. Humanity fell into unnatural sin by using God's gift of free will to disobey the one command he gave us (without a command we would not have had free will). Thanks to Jesus' sacrifice for us on the cross, we can have that relationship restored and when we pass away we will live for eternity with the living God who loves us more than anything, even when we don't deserve it.

On the same-sex parents deal:

Jake's right, it's much more difficult for kids to understand the proper roles and how to deal with each sex unless they have a mother and a father.

It's not a low estimation of kids, it's more of a case that people are very impressionable and learn how society functions in their childhood years, and most of that is through interaction with parents. Therefore, its better for kids to have a parent of each sex so they can understand how to have relationships with people of each gender.

On the scenario:

Played as Bob Russell and polled 30 percent of the vote and won the plurality of delegates. Awesome scenario....5/5!

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thanks for the bible lesson.

I'm happy with what I believe...which is that lying is not as bad as murdering 6 million people, and if the Lord sees those as the same then he is nota very good god.

The fact that you think all homosexuality is simply do to temptation shows why I am not religous. You dismis all common sense, and fact and believe everything based on what a 2000 year old book says. I like figureing things out for myself, and learning that I was wrong. A religous person is never wrong. they are right, no matter what. And when finally pure fact shows that they are wrong, they change what they think, and pretend they beeived it all thetime.

Evolution for one. I believe in Evolution for many reasons. The largest reason being it makes sense. All the species on Earth evolving over hundreds of millions of years based on many factors makes scientific sense. It makes a lot more sense than some God snapping his fingers and you have horses. Also, every scienist on Earth supprts evolution. That tends to carry some sway. Also, it explains so many things. Such as Dinosaurs and other extinct species(religon can't explain this, and when it tries it sounds really really dumb), and parts of our bodies that appear to do nothing such as the appendix. Evolutio would teach us it's a left over from an earlier primate that became Homo-Sapien.

To sum up. I'm not religous because I think it's silly to beleive something human's wrote about god. Humans that are no smarter than you. Why trust them to know what the meaning of existance is, and what happens when you die? I think Jesus is a wonderful figure to look to because of his teachings. And finally I will never follo a religon if doing so makes you a hateful bigot that calls wonderfulpeopel "immoral" only cause they are homosexual. I know many homosexuals and I garantee you they are far more moral than most. I know a very inteligent, crerative, and driven woman, but do to christianity she some how believes she should not follow a career, and become a house wife. She probably could rise high in whatever career path she took, but due to make believe she won't, and will bea 50s style wife. There's nothing wrong with that, but I hate the reasons.

Religon is wonderful on a personal and individual level. But it should be kept that way, and never never should be used to influence other peoples lives. Sadly though, it does that far to often.

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alright guys i know u could go on about how u love and hate gay people for years and years but this topic is on the west wing scenario so i say save all this talk for another topic

and swing and keyes i'm sorry u decided to sink to the level of taking quotes out of context to make your points swing i thought u were a little better than that (i already know what kind of person keyes is) u will see my response shortly on another topic

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I want facts to back that up.

I find your senarios filled with flaws, and I can see you have a very low estimation of children.

They haven't done studies on the long term effects of being raised by gay parents compared to heterosexual parents, and any that would be done would be compromised by the vast differences between children. But, just thinking the scenarios are flawed doesn't make them flawed. Show what is flawed.

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Yep...one of the most interesting scenarios I have played....I played Santos and came just in behind Hoynes and in from of the 'Front Runner". THe thing that was most appealing about this one is that there wasn't really a lot between any 4 of the contenders ...I actually blew it...I was counting on winning Illinois and Texas (or Florida)...Hoynes finished 467 ahead of me...winning IL and TX - which account for 229...leaving me to find 10 electoral votes...I lost S. Dakota by 48 votes !!!...

Off to play it again.....

Cheers,

Desmond.

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