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The US is out of the WHO!?

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45 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

1) This is already addressed by both the medical exemptions that already exist and my own post that you quoted here, pointing out the medical exemptions.

2) Get a better fitting mask.  For real.  Mine is extremely comfortable.  Try out different kinds.  But getting tired is not worse than getting Coronavirus.  This is not an excuse.

3) Over what period of time?  I work in a hospital for 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week.  Ive been wearing a mask the entire time since March.  I assure you I am still alive.  
 

4) I hope your interactions involved correcting them.

5) Yes they are.  I am more comfortable not wearing pants, but I still wear pants because I am a member of a society.  You want to talk about being uncomfortable?  Try getting Coronavirus.  It is not comfortable.  “For those of us who are low risk...”, you still encounter people who are high risk.  Think about someone other than yourself.

6) What illnesses are you referring to, specifically?  Death rate is not the only statistic to compare to.

7) No, they can’t.  That’s why there’s a mask mandate months after we tried the whole “people will just do the right thing without being ordered to” routine. 

1. Fine if you want to exclude them; however, that is a large chunk of the population which makes mask wearing a lot less effective.

2. Some people don't have diagnostic medical conditions but do have trouble breathing (because of sinus issues for instance) at times. A different type of mask isn't going to change that. My family happens to fall in that category, so I would know.

3. Doesn't mean it'll cause death (kinda like getting the virus); however, it can have negative side effects due to inhalation of carbon dioxide. In this case, self harm could be done despite the low risk the virus poses.

4. I believe in personal freedom. If someone doesn't know how to wear a mask properly, maybe they shouldn't be wearing one. I don't wear one because I don't feel the need to. But, this response also dodges the point that a large chunk of people don't know how to properly wear one. This makes wearing masks significantly less effective.

5. Ah, the old pants trick. It's a nice deflection but doesn't address the argument. If someone doesn't want to catch the virus, then they can find alternative ways to do stuff that doesn't involve them risking the virus. By going out, they accept personal responsibility for their actions (potentially getting the virus). It is not my job to pander to people's fears when I am out. Just like normal, I will respect people's space, but I'm not going to go out of my way to give them a false sense of security. That is not being selfish. That is living life. In fact, it is pretty selfish to try and force me to live a certain way in order to accommodate someone's false sense of security. As for getting the virus, I don't fear it. I wouldn't be doing election work if that were the case. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I had gotten back in February before everyone started freaking out about it. Though if I didn't get it then, I fully accept the risk of contracting the virus when I go about my daily business.

6. Pneumonia kills large numbers of people every year, but we don't hear about it's impact. The flu has a much lower death rate, but it is highly contagious (which is why we have flu seasons). Yet people don't freak out about the flu going around. And with information coming out that covid deaths have been inflated, its death rate is lower than reported. And with covid anti-body testing coming out, it will likely show a large chunk of people that have been exposed to it without dying (further lowering the death rate).

7. Yes they can. One can wash their hands which kills germs (hopefully they have been doing this all along). They can keep hand sanitizer with them in case hand washing isn't available (again this is a good idea regardless of the situation). They can give people personal space which reduces contact (it would be wise to do this regardless of the situation). If you are sick/not feeling well, you should stay home (hopefully you've been doing this already). All of these reduce the chance of spreading germs. If you go outside, you accept some risk of contracting the virus.

 

There is a political side of things as well. Many mask mandates are not constitutional and are blatant examples of those in charge overstepping their bounds. In these cases, not wearing a mask is civil disobedience and an act of protect against such actions.

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The WHO is appropriately dubbed CHO, China Health Organization. 

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From an American point of view any organization which is not lead by America is indeed a waste of money and time as they might work against American interests at times.

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8 hours ago, jvikings1 said:

1. Fine if you want to exclude them; however, that is a large chunk of the population which makes mask wearing a lot less effective.

2. Some people don't have diagnostic medical conditions but do have trouble breathing (because of sinus issues for instance) at times. A different type of mask isn't going to change that. My family happens to fall in that category, so I would know.

3. Doesn't mean it'll cause death (kinda like getting the virus); however, it can have negative side effects due to inhalation of carbon dioxide. In this case, self harm could be done despite the low risk the virus poses.

4. I believe in personal freedom. If someone doesn't know how to wear a mask properly, maybe they shouldn't be wearing one. I don't wear one because I don't feel the need to. But, this response also dodges the point that a large chunk of people don't know how to properly wear one. This makes wearing masks significantly less effective.

5. Ah, the old pants trick. It's a nice deflection but doesn't address the argument. If someone doesn't want to catch the virus, then they can find alternative ways to do stuff that doesn't involve them risking the virus. By going out, they accept personal responsibility for their actions (potentially getting the virus). It is not my job to pander to people's fears when I am out. Just like normal, I will respect people's space, but I'm not going to go out of my way to give them a false sense of security. That is not being selfish. That is living life. In fact, it is pretty selfish to try and force me to live a certain way in order to accommodate someone's false sense of security. As for getting the virus, I don't fear it. I wouldn't be doing election work if that were the case. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if I had gotten back in February before everyone started freaking out about it. Though if I didn't get it then, I fully accept the risk of contracting the virus when I go about my daily business.

6. Pneumonia kills large numbers of people every year, but we don't hear about it's impact. The flu has a much lower death rate, but it is highly contagious (which is why we have flu seasons). Yet people don't freak out about the flu going around. And with information coming out that covid deaths have been inflated, its death rate is lower than reported. And with covid anti-body testing coming out, it will likely show a large chunk of people that have been exposed to it without dying (further lowering the death rate).

7. Yes they can. One can wash their hands which kills germs (hopefully they have been doing this all along). They can keep hand sanitizer with them in case hand washing isn't available (again this is a good idea regardless of the situation). They can give people personal space which reduces contact (it would be wise to do this regardless of the situation). If you are sick/not feeling well, you should stay home (hopefully you've been doing this already). All of these reduce the chance of spreading germs. If you go outside, you accept some risk of contracting the virus.

 

There is a political side of things as well. Many mask mandates are not constitutional and are blatant examples of those in charge overstepping their bounds. In these cases, not wearing a mask is civil disobedience and an act of protect against such actions.

1.  If I want to exclude them?  They're already excluded, within the orders themselves.  They are already exempt.  "But I have a legitimate health condition" is the only valid reason to not wear a mask, and therefore it's already permitted to not wear one in that circumstance.

2. Yes, actually, it would - depending on the mask.  Additionally, if your family already has breathing problems, you should be the one begging others to wear a mask for your own family's safety.  

3.  No.  Again, I've been wearing one all day at work for four months without negative effects.  You can put one on for 30 minutes at the grocery store.  I promise.

4. This is still a weak excuse.  Some people don't wear their masks flawlessly, and therefore no one should have to wear one?  Educate them on how to wear the mask if they're wearing it wrong.  That's the actual solution to the problem you're proposing here.  

5.  There are no alternative ways to avoid catching the virus.  Not in the long run.  You can choose not to go to a restaurant, but you still have to acquire food.  You may be fortunate enough to be able to work from home for now (I haven't had that luxury), but eventually people will be required to come back to work at most jobs.  You will eventually need a doctor's appointment, a dentist, car repairs, to get on a plane and fly somewhere.  People cannot just stay in their houses forever.  This isn't hard!  You want everyone to be able to return to their normal lives?  So do I!  Wear the stupid mask and people can actually do that with minimal risk.

6.  Pneumonia is not contagious.  Come on, man.  There is an annual vaccine for the flu.   It's also not a big deal to the majority of people who catch it.  Most people quickly recover at home, and it's not so contagious that hospitals become literally overrun by those needing emergency care from the flu.  Completely different from COVID-19.

7.  Yes, they can and should.  They also can and should be wearing a mask.  If washing hands was all it took, then the mandate would simply be to wash your hands.

As for the politics, if I want to build a house, I don't get to just build a house.  I have to show plans and get permits and have inspections to prove that my house isn't going to collapse on the people inside it -- even if I am the only person who would ever be inside of it.  That is not politics, that is public safety.  We don't want buildings falling on our heads.  We could minimize the risk by never going inside of buildings, but that is not a practical solution.

 

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5 hours ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

From an American point of view any organization which is not lead by America is indeed a waste of money and time as they might work against American interests at times.

What are American interests? To be stranded helpless in its own bubble?

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8 hours ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

From an American point of view any organization which is not lead by America is indeed a waste of money and time as they might work against American interests at times.

This is a straightforward point and makes some sense. Either have de facto control, or get out of it.

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9 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

This is a straightforward point and makes some sense. Either have de facto control, or get out of it.

Absolutist thinking costs lives unnecessarily and callously, as does Nationalist and Parochial thinking.

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20 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

This is a straightforward point and makes some sense. Either have de facto control, or get out of it.

As a superpower the US could afford such an approach.

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1 minute ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

As a superpower the US could afford such an approach.

A superpower with a much higher focus on an overbloated military budget and enriching ultra-wealthy plutocrats that reliably and provably helping their own people and maintaining infrastructure. I remain HIGHLY dubious that "superpower," is sufficient, with a government and two major parties, like the U.S.' running that superpower. But you are correct, it should be affordable and workable - easily so - and the fact that U.S. government and it's two major have FAILED their utterly and completely in taking care of domestic duties of government is a complete abdication of every mandate and aspect of their duties. So, perhaps, instead of kicking out the WHO, the American people would be MUCH BETTER serving by kicking the two corrupt and treasonous political that win every election because their rigged as thoroughly as Russia and Zimbabwe's and who have failed, cheated, and lied to their people constantly, and kept seditious secrets from them, the anachronistic form of government that just doesn't work in the 21st Century, and the blood-sucking leeches of the ultra-wealthy plutocrats who corruptly monopolize most the wealth and ear of government that belongs to the taxpayers and voters. Maybe the bile and vitriol is directed at the wrong targets if true change and betterment are to be expected.

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4 hours ago, Actinguy said:

1.  If I want to exclude them?  They're already excluded, within the orders themselves.  They are already exempt.  "But I have a legitimate health condition" is the only valid reason to not wear a mask, and therefore it's already permitted to not wear one in that circumstance.

2. Yes, actually, it would - depending on the mask.  Additionally, if your family already has breathing problems, you should be the one begging others to wear a mask for your own family's safety.  

3.  No.  Again, I've been wearing one all day at work for four months without negative effects.  You can put one on for 30 minutes at the grocery store.  I promise.

4. This is still a weak excuse.  Some people don't wear their masks flawlessly, and therefore no one should have to wear one?  Educate them on how to wear the mask if they're wearing it wrong.  That's the actual solution to the problem you're proposing here.  

5.  There are no alternative ways to avoid catching the virus.  Not in the long run.  You can choose not to go to a restaurant, but you still have to acquire food.  You may be fortunate enough to be able to work from home for now (I haven't had that luxury), but eventually people will be required to come back to work at most jobs.  You will eventually need a doctor's appointment, a dentist, car repairs, to get on a plane and fly somewhere.  People cannot just stay in their houses forever.  This isn't hard!  You want everyone to be able to return to their normal lives?  So do I!  Wear the stupid mask and people can actually do that with minimal risk.

6.  Pneumonia is not contagious.  Come on, man.  There is an annual vaccine for the flu.   It's also not a big deal to the majority of people who catch it.  Most people quickly recover at home, and it's not so contagious that hospitals become literally overrun by those needing emergency care from the flu.  Completely different from COVID-19.

7.  Yes, they can and should.  They also can and should be wearing a mask.  If washing hands was all it took, then the mandate would simply be to wash your hands.

As for the politics, if I want to build a house, I don't get to just build a house.  I have to show plans and get permits and have inspections to prove that my house isn't going to collapse on the people inside it -- even if I am the only person who would ever be inside of it.  That is not politics, that is public safety.  We don't want buildings falling on our heads.  We could minimize the risk by never going inside of buildings, but that is not a practical solution.

 

1. I'm not even referring to a mask mandate. I am referring to the effective use of a mask. If all these people cannot wear masks, the effectiveness of wearing a mask significantly decreases. Therefore, it makes less sense to wear a mask around even if you can because of all the people that cannot do to a condition.

2. Lol, no they don't. It's funny to see you try and speak to problems that members of my family deal with personally when you have no idea what they deal with. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in this specific case. Additionally, if there were a mask that did work (and didn't impede breathing too much) but cost a significant amount of money, it wouldn't be worth the cost to use one because of the low risk the virus poses. And no, no one in my family is at heightened risk from the virus. So, we're not gonna live in fear of something that has a low likelihood of actually doing significant damage.

3. Yes, it has been proven that wearing masks for extended periods of time can cause harm due to carbon dioxide intake. Just because you don;t notice harm or it hasn't cause harm in your case doesn't mean it doesn't happen. No, going to the grocery store most likely wouldn't cause that. But, if someone has to work for an extended period of time with one, that isn't the same situation.

4. If people don't know how to use them and therefore masks are not very effective, then it doesn't make much sense for me to go out of my way to wear one considering the low danger of the virus and the lack of effectiveness of mask wearing. This absolutely has to be taken into account if you are going to try and shame people into wearing them.

5. If you need food, someone can bring you it instead of you going out to the grocery store. If you are scared of the virus, then don't go into work and find an opportunity that allows you to stay home. If you need to go to the doctor, go to one that follows caution that allows you to stay in your car before going in and then go straight home. And flying to travel somewhere is very much in the luxury category. If you are willing to fly for travel, you are voluntarily assuming the risks involved with that. There are plenty of ways to get around going out in public if someone is afraid of catching covid.

I'm not working from home. In fact, I am out campaigning for candidates that I believe in. Why do I do this despite the virus? Because I accept the risks of my job and am willing to do it regardless. There's a good chance I could catch the thing because of my line of work, but that doesn't stop me from doing it. Nice try assuming that I'm just tucked away in my house though! Also, the virus is already a minimal risk for most people. A mask might reduce spreading somewhat, but it's nowhere near a perfect method. The virus will still spread regardless of mask usage.

6. There are a number of forms of Pneumonia that are contagious. If you actually have all kinds of medical knowledge from working in a hospital as you say, you should know this. Maybe you are actually not the expert you claim to be on this virus (or other medical issues wither). As for a flu, it still is highly contagious despite the vaccine. Flu vaccinations are nowhere near perfect because of the various strands. Again, you should know this. But, it's funny how you say that it isn't a big deal to most people that catch it because that's the same with covid. Most people, especially people my age, won't deal with serious side effects. If that is your argument, then I agree, we shouldn't be overreacting to such a low harm rate.

7. Glad you agree after denying this point in your first attempt at rebuttal. I guess we are getting somewhere. Sure maybe a mask does some to reduce the risk of spread. But, there's still a risk that I could catch it regardless of my mask usage. So since a mask isn't going to stop the virus, wearing a mask is not comfortable, and the risk that the virus poses is very low, I'll take my chances without a mask (just like with other things that I could catch while out in public any other time) while taking more practical steps to avoid it as much as possible.

 

Again, you dodge the point I make while bringing up something that has nothing to do with mask mandates. I specifically referred to mandates that overstep the authority of those who institute them (whether it's a governor, a local health official, or a potential order from the President). But, we also have the civil liberties argument that can also be brought into the equation.

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