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The US is out of the WHO!?

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Rationale: World Health Organization is in bed with China.

Membership in WHO probably won't have much affect one way or the other as far as U.S. recovery from COVID-19.

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1 minute ago, vcczar said:

Yeah, he's an idiot. Don't worry. President Biden will put us back in it. 

There won't BE a President Biden, I'm convinced of it.

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Just now, Wiw said:

There won't BE a President Biden, I'm convinced of it.

You and @admin_270 and Trump admin officials seem to be the only people that think that is the case. 

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8 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Rationale: World Health Organization is in bed with China.

Membership in WHO probably won't have much affect one way or the other as far as U.S. recovery from COVID-19.

Well, is Trump being in bed with Russia anymore admirable and laudable?

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37 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Rationale: World Health Organization is in bed with China.

Membership in WHO probably won't have much affect one way or the other as far as U.S. recovery from COVID-19.

Oh yes it will, because it drives the US closer to being a pariah state, whom nobody's ever going to help. They're drowning and they've smacked away the hand that's trying to pull them out!

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2 hours ago, Wiw said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53327906

What is he doing? That's the one way to assure that the US will never recover from this virus!

Good! The World Heath Organization is nothing more than a waste of money. I wish Trump would go further and start cutting off US subsidies to other international organizations as well. That money would be better in American hands rather than globalist scum.

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7 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

Good! The World Heath Organization is nothing more than a waste of money. I wish Trump would go further and start cutting off US subsidies to other international organizations as well. That money would be better in American hands rather than globalist scum.

Your blanket hatred of all international organizations, regardless of purpose or function, often blinds you to the very real necessity of such organizations in the dangerous and tangled world we live in. Dropping all these memberships would needlessly - and vainly - endanger millions of American lives abroad. And I've always the willingness to endanger or sacrifice human life - especially if they, themselves, are given no personal choice in the matter, on the altar of socio-political and ideological purity to be a great evil - one comparable to many of the excesses of Fascism, Communism, and Theocracy. I have to find that point of view of yours completely morally repugnant - though probably out of an uninformed and somewhat detached perspective on things.

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3 minutes ago, Patine said:

Your blanket hatred of all international organizations, regardless of purpose or function, often blinds you to the very real necessity of such organizations in the dangerous and tangled world we live in. Dropping all these memberships would needlessly - and vainly - endanger millions of American lives abroad. And I've always the willingness to endanger or sacrifice human life - especially if they, themselves, are given no personal choice in the matter, on the altar of socio-political and ideological purity to be a great evil - one comparable to many of the excesses of Fascism, Communism, and Theocracy. I have to find that point of view of yours completely morally repugnant - though probably out of an uninformed and somewhat detached perspective on things.

Well, considering most international organizations are pretty much useless and don't do a whole lot (and when they do it is usually contrary to American interests), yes I am against my hard-earned tax dollars being sent to them. There are plenty or private organizations that do humanitarian work which are far more effective than international government organizations. And diplomacy can be done individually or in groups without some garbage organization (the UN) being the source of talks.

So, I contest the notion that dropping membership (or we can even limit it to funding for) international organizations would put millions of Americans at risk. That's a pretty outlandish claim to make.

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2 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

Well, considering most international organizations are pretty much useless and don't do a whole lot (and when they do it is usually contrary to American interests), yes I am against my hard-earned tax dollars being sent to them. There are plenty or private organizations that do humanitarian work which are far more effective than international government organizations. And diplomacy can be done individually or in groups without some garbage organization (the UN) being the source of talks.

So, I contest the notion that dropping membership (or we can even limit it to funding for) international organizations would put millions of Americans at risk. That's a pretty outlandish claim to make.

The WHO tipped off the Dallas health board that a potential Ebola patient was about to land at their airport. The American authorities would have otherwise been blindsided. There's a good example. Also, international coordination in research on treatments and vaccines make outbreaks (like Covid-19) actually have horizons of potential ends in realistic sight. These kinds of necessary cooperation and coordination get sabotaged for no appreciable gain by the political multi-headed serpent that is Nationalism (a toxic ideology in my mind as is - one of the big roots and pillars of such horrid ideologies as Nazism and other forms of Fascism, Modi's Hindu Nationalism, the most right-wing extremist Zionists that Likud almost always has to court to form coalitions in Israel, Nasser's Arab Nationalism in Egypt and other Arab countries - including it's Ba'athist branch in Syria and formerly Iraq, Hutu Power in Rwanda and Burundi, Erdogan and Putin's political movements in Turkey and Russia, respectively, and one of the big differing ways - and abnormality from typical ideological standards - that the Khmer Rouge and Workers' Party of Korea differ from standard Communism, as well as the most vitriolic and fire-spitting xenophobes in the Anglo-Sphere and Europe tend to be products that grow from the fertile soil of Nationalism - hence why I always looks askance at the ideology).

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32 minutes ago, Patine said:

Your blanket hatred of all international organizations, regardless of purpose or function, often blinds you to the very real necessity of such organizations in the dangerous and tangled world we live in. Dropping all these memberships would needlessly - and vainly - endanger millions of American lives abroad. And I've always the willingness to endanger or sacrifice human life - especially if they, themselves, are given no personal choice in the matter, on the altar of socio-political and ideological purity to be a great evil - one comparable to many of the excesses of Fascism, Communism, and Theocracy. I have to find that point of view of yours completely morally repugnant - though probably out of an uninformed and somewhat detached perspective on things.

While you have a point regarding the endangered lives that would result from pulling out of all international organizations, I empathize with some of @jvikings1 points.  The blue helmets are among the worst examples that can ever be cited as a good example of international diplomacy.  Even in Haiti, the blue helmets are responsible for countless incidents of rape while seemingly failing to carry out their peacekeeping mandate in many African countries as well.  Even worse, they try to pressure other nearby nations into having their healthcare and educational systems overwhelmed and destroyed from the endless swarms of Haitian refugees, while doing nothing to fix the problem and make the situation better there.  As a matter of the fact, I think that they had to end the mission in Haiti due to the rape and violence what was occurring in that region.  I refuse to take the UN seriously when nations such as the PRC and Saudi Arabia have been sitting members of the Human Rights Council, it is nothing but a joke.

The only other international body that I have as much contempt for is the European Union, who feel that they have the rights to tell non-member nations how to structure their tax code.  The United Kingdom was very wise to leave that arrogant and presumptuous organization.  I cannot wait for it to implode in another 10-20 years.  I personally believe that CARICOM is a much more healthy example of how a similar international organizationn should work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Haiti

 

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3 minutes ago, CPE said:

While you have a point regarding the endangered lives that would result from pulling out of all international organizations, I empathize with some of @jvikings1 points.  The blue helmets are among the worst examples that can ever be cited as a good example of international diplomacy.  Even in Haiti, the blue helmets are responsible for countless incidents of rape while seemingly failing to carry out their peacekeeping mandate in many African countries as well.  Even worse, they try to pressure other nearby nations into having their healthcare and educational systems overwhelmed and destroyed from the endless swarms of Haitian refugees, while doing nothing to fix the problem and make the situation better there.  As a matter of the fact, I think that they had to end the mission in Haiti due to the rape and violence what was occurring in that region.  I refuse to take the UN seriously when nations such as the PRC and Saudi Arabia have been sitting members of the Human Rights Council, it is nothing but a joke.

The only other international body that I have as much contempt for is the European Union, who feel that they have the rights to tell non-member nations how to structure their tax code.  The United Kingdom was very wise to leave that arrogant and presumptuous organization.  I cannot wait for it to implode in another 10-20 years.  I personally believe that CARICOM is a much more healthy example of how a similar international organizationn should work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Haiti

 

Still, is the brinkmanship, colonial and rapacious attitude, callous "balance of power," mentality, drawing borders at conventions arbitrarily without representatives of the nations' whose borders are being redrawn, gunboat diplomacy, "unequal treaties," and other overt vulture-like trade and diplomacy practices, etc. of the 19th Century (the last century of history completely without any binding and permanent international organizations of any significance) really better? How would your home nation fare?

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3 hours ago, vcczar said:

You and @admin_270 and Trump admin officials seem to be the only people that think that is the case. 

I mean, I believe it too.

If you think the general American population has gotten any smarter over the past four years...or at LEAST any better at protecting their own self interests...just look at the idiots who STILL refuse to wear a mask.

America has only become more stupid.

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11 minutes ago, Patine said:

Still, is the brinkmanship, colonial and rapacious attitude, callous "balance of power," mentality, drawing borders at conventions arbitrarily without representatives of the nations' whose borders are being redrawn, gunboat diplomacy, "unequal treaties," and other overt vulture-like trade and diplomacy practices, etc. of the 19th Century (the last century of history completely without any binding and permanent international organizations of any significance) really better? How would your home nation fare?

Fair point.  It still happens to a much smaller extent anyways given that the Big Five have the power to veto anything they don't like at the Security Council, but I get what you are saying about it being totally unrestricted.

To be quite honest, most nations here are unofficial colonies of either the US or the PRC anyways, it would just formalize the process.  Even the West Indies Federation, if it still existed, would not have been able to survive on its own as a truly independent entity.  Hard to make financial ends meet when there are a lot of people and very limited natural resources in certain regions.  Bauxite, oil, aragonite, fishing, etc. here are not enough to keep everyone fed, hence the heavy reliance on the Sir Stafford Sands tourism model.  The Gulf Nations are able to pull off a similar model because they have vast natural reserves, and to be quite honest, are much better businessmen compared to those in charge of the Caribbean nations.

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Just now, Actinguy said:

I mean, I believe it too.

If you think the general American population has gotten any smarter over the past four years...or at LEAST any better at protecting their own self interests...just look at the idiots who STILL refuse to wear a mask.

America has only become more stupid.

I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence or lack of intelligence. I think even stupid people suffer from Trump fatigue. I think a lot of the Trump support in 2016 was more dislike of Hillary Clinton. Some will dislike Biden, but it will be fewer people. 

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4 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I don't think it has anything to do with intelligence or lack of intelligence. I think even stupid people suffer from Trump fatigue. I think a lot of the Trump support in 2016 was more dislike of Hillary Clinton. Some will dislike Biden, but it will be fewer people. 

We might be using different definitions of stupid.

Im not talking about the uneducated.  I’m talking about the willfully ignorant.

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

The WHO tipped off the Dallas health board that a potential Ebola patient was about to land at their airport. The American authorities would have otherwise been blindsided. There's a good example. Also, international coordination in research on treatments and vaccines make outbreaks (like Covid-19) actually have horizons of potential ends in realistic sight. These kinds of necessary cooperation and coordination get sabotaged for no appreciable gain by the political multi-headed serpent that is Nationalism (a toxic ideology in my mind as is - one of the big roots and pillars of such horrid ideologies as Nazism and other forms of Fascism, Modi's Hindu Nationalism, the most right-wing extremist Zionists that Likud almost always has to court to form coalitions in Israel, Nasser's Arab Nationalism in Egypt and other Arab countries - including it's Ba'athist branch in Syria and formerly Iraq, Hutu Power in Rwanda and Burundi, Erdogan and Putin's political movements in Turkey and Russia, respectively, and one of the big differing ways - and abnormality from typical ideological standards - that the Khmer Rouge and Workers' Party of Korea differ from standard Communism, as well as the most vitriolic and fire-spitting xenophobes in the Anglo-Sphere and Europe tend to be products that grow from the fertile soil of Nationalism - hence why I always looks askance at the ideology).

Again, international cooperation can be done without some bureaucratic political organization acting as a middle man. Interesting that you mention covid considering WHO has proved to be totally useless in responding to the outbreak (and likely has grown close to Chinese leadership).

I am fully willing to facilitate research between countries that are seeking to actually better the world with the research.

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20 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

I mean, I believe it too.

If you think the general American population has gotten any smarter over the past four years...or at LEAST any better at protecting their own self interests...just look at the idiots who STILL refuse to wear a mask.

America has only become more stupid.

Ah yes, the old you are an idiot if you refuse to wear a mask. Let's just throw insults around without considering any rational arguments for not doing so.

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6 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Hadn't heard of Caricom before - thanks for this, interesting.

Not quite an EU clone, hence why I specifically included the word similar.

A lot less centralized, but many of the principles behind it are the same.  Free trade, easy movement between member nations, coordinated national development, etc.  Two parts to the treaty though, and it is not required to be a member of both.  If my memory is right, the first part deals with tariffs and trade between member nations, while the second relates to freedom of movement and residency rights.  Some countries are part of the first, but not the second.  Most have visa free movement, but some members are particularly protective about residency and labour rights.  If you want to read about similar organizations, check out the OAS or the historical West Indies Federation as well.

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9 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

Ah yes, the old you are an idiot if you refuse to wear a mask. Let's just throw insults around without considering any rational arguments for not doing so.

Hit me with a rational one.

Sure, some people are on oxygen tanks or other extreme cases.  But that's not the majority of those refusing to wear masks, and there's already a medical exemption to the orders. 

So hit me with that rational argument.

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8 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Hit me with a rational one.

Sure, some people are on oxygen tanks or other extreme cases.  But that's not the majority of those refusing to wear masks, and there's already a medical exemption to the orders. 

So hit me with that rational argument.

1. Some people have medical problems that are greatly exacerbated by something covering their nose. They literally put themselves at risk by doing so (and much greater than the threat of the virus).

2. Even with those without medical conditions, it makes it more difficult to breathe which has a negative impact on physical health (fatigue, headaches, light-headedness, etc.).

3. Prolonged wearing of a mask can lead to excessive inhalation of carbon dioxide which has negative effects on health.

4. People who can't/don't wear them properly can actually increase the spread of covid. Most people I have interacted with could fall into this category.

5. For those who are at low risk from the virus, the risks from the virus are not enough to justify the discomfort of wearing a mask all the time.

6. We don't freak out about other illnesses that have similar death rates to covid, so wearing a mask at low risk doesn't seem necessary.

7. One can practice good hygiene to protect themselves and others without resorting to wearing a mask around.

 

And these don't even bring up the validity of mask mandates.

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23 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

1. Some people have medical problems that are greatly exacerbated by something covering their nose. They literally put themselves at risk by doing so (and much greater than the threat of the virus).

2. Even with those without medical conditions, it makes it more difficult to breathe which has a negative impact on physical health (fatigue, headaches, light-headedness, etc.).

3. Prolonged wearing of a mask can lead to excessive inhalation of carbon dioxide which has negative effects on health.

4. People who can't/don't wear them properly can actually increase the spread of covid. Most people I have interacted with could fall into this category.

5. For those who are at low risk from the virus, the risks from the virus are not enough to justify the discomfort of wearing a mask all the time.

6. We don't freak out about other illnesses that have similar death rates to covid, so wearing a mask at low risk doesn't seem necessary.

7. One can practice good hygiene to protect themselves and others without resorting to wearing a mask around.

 

And these don't even bring up the validity of mask mandates.

1) This is already addressed by both the medical exemptions that already exist and my own post that you quoted here, pointing out the medical exemptions.

2) Get a better fitting mask.  For real.  Mine is extremely comfortable.  Try out different kinds.  But getting tired is not worse than getting Coronavirus.  This is not an excuse.

3) Over what period of time?  I work in a hospital for 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week.  Ive been wearing a mask the entire time since March.  I assure you I am still alive.  
 

4) I hope your interactions involved correcting them.

5) Yes they are.  I am more comfortable not wearing pants, but I still wear pants because I am a member of a society.  You want to talk about being uncomfortable?  Try getting Coronavirus.  It is not comfortable.  “For those of us who are low risk...”, you still encounter people who are high risk.  Think about someone other than yourself.

6) What illnesses are you referring to, specifically?  Death rate is not the only statistic to compare to.

7) No, they can’t.  That’s why there’s a mask mandate months after we tried the whole “people will just do the right thing without being ordered to” routine. 

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