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vcczar

Jon Huntsman loses Utah GOP primary

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This is kind of shocking considering how well he did as governor in the past. However, my primary reason for this post is to state that Huntsman might be the GOP politician I respect the most. I thought he was clearly the most intelligent and sanest of the 2012 GOP candidates for president. He's arguably the closest to non-partisan party member, if that's even a thing that is possible. I'm kind of hoping Biden makes him Amb to China (he's fluent in Mandarin) or Amb to UN. 

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1 hour ago, admin_270 said:

Gubernatorial primary for those who weren't following this (as I wasn't).

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/06/huntsman-loses-gop-primary-in-utah-349958

Lost to Lt. Gov. Cox

https://www.votecox.com/

It seems like former politicians who have tried to make a comeback (even in positions they previously filled) haven't been doing very well recently. I wonder if the change mentality hurts them even more than incumbents.

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15 hours ago, vcczar said:

This is kind of shocking considering how well he did as governor in the past. However, my primary reason for this post is to state that Huntsman might be the GOP politician I respect the most. I thought he was clearly the most intelligent and sanest of the 2012 GOP candidates for president. He's arguably the closest to non-partisan party member, if that's even a thing that is possible. I'm kind of hoping Biden makes him Amb to China (he's fluent in Mandarin) or Amb to UN. 

Yeah, I had a great respect for Huntsman and planned to vote for him in the 2012 election against Obama (despite me backing Obama in 2008 and ultimately again in 2012) because he was a voice of reason against right wing extremism.

However, I'm not sure he cracked even 1% in the polls and quickly flamed out, because "voice of reason" was dismissed as "RINO" (Republican In Name Only).  So it's maybe not surprising that he couldn't win a GOP Primary in Utah either after the taint of "worked with Obama", maybe coupled with the follow-up taint of "worked with Trump, in Russia of all places".  Utah may not have been Obama's biggest fan, but they also generally don't love Trump.  I still remember when Evan McMullin started polling in first place for the Presidential election in Utah.

I'd add that "Double Down: Game Change 2012" (written by the same team that wrote the amazing "Game Change" insider account of the 2008 election, before at least one of them got accused of sexual harassment and their 2016 book got cancelled) paints a pretty incompetent view of Jon Huntsman.  The insider details paint the picture of a guy who didn't really understand what it would take to run an election.  He wasn't willing to spend his own money, wasn't willing to ask his father for money, and wasn't willing to ask the general public for money.  So...there was no money.

 

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8 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

because "voice of reason" was dismissed as "RINO" (Republican In Name Only).

Unfortunately, the "voice of reason," is dying in both major parties in the U.S., as extremists of different sorts are hijacking both of their leaderships. "Centrists," "Moderate," and "rational-thinkers," are dismissed as "fence-sitters," "having no meaningful viewpoint on any issue," or "might as be, or enable, the other party (of the one judging) by default." Even Biden is largely dismissed by a large number of Democrats as likely becoming a figurehead - so many are banking on his running mate as the REAL "candidate," if you will. The socio-political zeitgeist is frighteningly emotion- and fear-driven, and bad stereotypes, long-debunked myths, ruinous agendas and social practices, and a discouraging of real self-education and long-term thinking proliferate. The base mood and tenor seem eerily - and ominously - like the Weimar Republic...

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29 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Yeah, I had a great respect for Huntsman and planned to vote for him in the 2012 election against Obama (despite me backing Obama in 2008 and ultimately again in 2012) because he was a voice of reason against right wing extremism.

However, I'm not sure he cracked even 1% in the polls and quickly flamed out, because "voice of reason" was dismissed as "RINO" (Republican In Name Only).  So it's maybe not surprising that he couldn't win a GOP Primary in Utah either after the taint of "worked with Obama", maybe coupled with the follow-up taint of "worked with Trump, in Russia of all places".  Utah may not have been Obama's biggest fan, but they also generally don't love Trump.  I still remember when Evan McMullin started polling in first place for the Presidential election in Utah.

I'd add that "Double Down: Game Change 2012" (written by the same team that wrote the amazing "Game Change" insider account of the 2008 election, before at least one of them got accused of sexual harassment and their 2016 book got cancelled) paints a pretty incompetent view of Jon Huntsman.  The insider details paint the picture of a guy who didn't really understand what it would take to run an election.  He wasn't willing to spend his own money, wasn't willing to ask his father for money, and wasn't willing to ask the general public for money.  So...there was no money.

 

One guy on Twitter was saying how he supported Huntsman in 2012 and voted for him for governor twice, but that he couldn’t vote for him after he worked for Trump. 

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27 minutes ago, Patine said:

 Even Biden is largely dismissed by a large number of Democrats as likely becoming a figurehead - so many are banking on his running mate as the REAL "candidate," if you will. 

If Biden cared at all about what I thought, I'd urge him to not do this.

The 2008 Presidential campaign was...from my perspective as someone who considered himself to be a moderate independent...between two likable candidates.  One was exciting and cool and promising all kinds of exciting things.  And the other one wasn't any of those things...but he was the voice of reason, he'd been around the block, he understood what could actually be accomplished and how, and he had the experience that you wanted in the event of a national emergency (which, just seven years removed from 9/11, was not a far reach to imagine again).  

So it was "Exciting" versus "experienced", as exciting as I found "Exciting" to be, I was also leaning towards "experienced" winning the day.  

Then McCain...at the time, the oldest Presidential candidate we'd ever had...through away his "experience" argument to make an extremely flawed grab at "exciting" by choosing Palin and his campaign never even came close to recovering.  It was a fatal mistake, because now there was no longer any argument at all in favor of McCain other than having a (R) at the end of his name.

Biden's pitch is "Moderation" versus "Extreme right".  He promises he's going to work with Republicans even as he returns our nation to decency again.  He's going to uphold our Democrat values, of course, but he's not going to do it by demonizing his opponents on Twitter.  He's going to actually be Presidential.

He would be throwing that out the window if he chose, say, someone from "The Squad."

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5 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

If Biden cared at all about what I thought, I'd urge him to not do this.

The 2008 Presidential campaign was...from my perspective as someone who considered himself to be a moderate independent...between two likable candidates.  One was exciting and cool and promising all kinds of exciting things.  And the other one wasn't any of those things...but he was the voice of reason, he'd been around the block, he understood what could actually be accomplished and how, and he had the experience that you wanted in the event of a national emergency (which, just seven years removed from 9/11, was not a far reach to imagine again).  

So it was "Exciting" versus "experienced", as exciting as I found "Exciting" to be, I was also leaning towards "experienced" winning the day.  

Then McCain...at the time, the oldest Presidential candidate we'd ever had...through away his "experience" argument to make an extremely flawed grab at "exciting" by choosing Palin and his campaign never even came close to recovering.  It was a fatal mistake, because now there was no longer any argument at all in favor of McCain other than having a (R) at the end of his name.

Biden's pitch is "Moderation" versus "Extreme right".  He promises he's going to work with Republicans even as he returns our nation to decency again.  He's going to uphold our Democrat values, of course, but he's not going to do it by demonizing his opponents on Twitter.  He's going to actually be Presidential.

He would be throwing that out the window if he chose, say, someone from "The Squad."

That would have been great and well in 2008 and socio-political environment at the time. But, it strikes me that a VERY large number of people who would logically for a Democratic candidate in the modern day don't want a President whose values are "decency," "dignity," "stability," and "being Presidential." A lot of them (and I've heard a lot more of this on other forums and Internet media than, say, here) want the very fabric of the governance, society, economic structure and stratification, methods of policing and judiciary, and even the way people relate to each other and refer to each - changed in absolutely drastic and revolutionary ways - in many cases and areas even far outdoing any reform rhetoric I ever spew for drastic upending of the current system. I somehow just don't think you realize this.

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1 hour ago, vcczar said:

One guy on Twitter was saying how he supported Huntsman in 2012 and voted for him for governor twice, but that he couldn’t vote for him after he worked for Trump. 

Kind of strange. If I want to see change I need to make my own efforts as well. If Huntsman had not worked for Trump some Trumplican had anyway... so wasn't it better when Huntsman joined the very thing he might have wanted to change from the inside? Gandhi said "be the change you wish to see in the world", so Huntsman tried to be this sort of change when working for Trump I presume.

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

That would have been great and well in 2008 and socio-political environment at the time. But, it strikes me that a VERY large number of people who would logically for a Democratic candidate in the modern day don't want a President whose values are "decency," "dignity," "stability," and "being Presidential." A lot of them (and I've heard a lot more of this on other forums and Internet media than, say, here) want the very fabric of the governance, society, economic structure and stratification, methods of policing and judiciary, and even the way people relate to each other and refer to each - changed in absolutely drastic and revolutionary ways - in many cases and areas even far outdoing any reform rhetoric I ever spew for drastic upending of the current system. I somehow just don't think you realize this.

Oh, I completely understand that these people exist.  Many of my friends have these same long term goals, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

I just don't think they make up 50%+ of the electoral votes.  They may one day!  But not yet.  

In the meantime, we accomplish nothing until we can win 50%+ of the electoral votes.
 

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3 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Kind of strange. If I want to see change I need to make my own efforts as well. If Huntsman had not worked for Trump some Trumplican had anyway... so wasn't it better when Huntsman joined the very thing he might have wanted to change from the inside? Gandhi said "be the change you wish to see in the world", so Huntsman tried to be this sort of change when working for Trump I presume.

I think Huntsman is of an old philosophy in which you accept the calling of government when called, regardless of ideology or party of the president. I was glad when Huntsman was picked as Russian Ambassador, since if Trump's friendly relations with Putin are true, then Huntsman would be some safeguard. My guess is that quiet Trump critics n the government worked hard to get Huntsman that position. 

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5 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Kind of strange. If I want to see change I need to make my own efforts as well. If Huntsman had not worked for Trump some Trumplican had anyway... so wasn't it better when Huntsman joined the very thing he might have wanted to change from the inside? Gandhi said "be the change you wish to see in the world", so Huntsman tried to be this sort of change when working for Trump I presume.

Sure, agreed.  Of course, this is the same argument Huntsman tried to make about working for Obama too, and that sank him as well.  

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42 minutes ago, Conservative Elector 2 said:

Kind of strange. If I want to see change I need to make my own efforts as well. If Huntsman had not worked for Trump some Trumplican had anyway... so wasn't it better when Huntsman joined the very thing he might have wanted to change from the inside? Gandhi said "be the change you wish to see in the world", so Huntsman tried to be this sort of change when working for Trump I presume.

Gandhi was assassinated by two radical Hindu Nationalists blessed by a radical Brahmin who all three belonged to a political movement the modern BJP schismed off from because they felt he was too moderate, too tolerant, too collaborationist, and gave too much ground to groups they viewed as enemies (such as the All-India Muslim League, led by Mohammed Ali Jinnah, "the Father of Pakistan"). Just a note on how politics tends to view such people - for good or for ill...

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1 hour ago, Actinguy said:

Sure, agreed.  Of course, this is the same argument Huntsman tried to make about working for Obama too, and that sank him as well.  

Too bad I would like to see him work for Biden, if he becomes president!

39 minutes ago, Patine said:

Gandhi was assassinated by two radical Hindu Nationalists blessed by a radical Brahmin who all three belonged to a political movement the modern BJP schismed off from because they felt he was too moderate, too tolerant, too collaborationist, and gave too much ground to groups they viewed as enemies (such as the All-India Muslim League, led by Mohammed Ali Jinnah, "the Father of Pakistan"). Just a note on how politics tends to view such people - for good or for ill...

Yeah... violence should never be an option.

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