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Hestia11

Russian Bounties

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I'm a little surprised this hasn't been posted yet, but I think any American regardless of political affiliation is angered by the actions that Russia has taken. There has been some sort of incompetence on the part of the administration. If what Trump claims is true - then someone should've briefed him. It's that simple. If (as I believe) he ignored it, and allowed this to take place - that's dangerous. This is particularly damaging considering the UK got a briefing on the same thing by the US intelligence agencies so why would the British PM be briefed and not the US President? This is a time where it is clear that Trump doesn't necessarily align with the GOP on this - Republican officials have called for the administration to take steps against Russia. However, it is clear that they haven't as of now. If something was happening behind closed doors that the public doesn't know about, GOP officials would be saying that it was being handled. That's not what's happening. Russia is getting away with literal murder and someone is complicit. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53231840

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18 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

I'm a little surprised this hasn't been posted yet, but I think any American regardless of political affiliation is angered by the actions that Russia has taken. There has been some sort of incompetence on the part of the administration. If what Trump claims is true - then someone should've briefed him. It's that simple. If (as I believe) he ignored it, and allowed this to take place - that's dangerous. This is particularly damaging considering the UK got a briefing on the same thing by the US intelligence agencies so why would the British PM be briefed and not the US President? This is a time where it is clear that Trump doesn't necessarily align with the GOP on this - Republican officials have called for the administration to take steps against Russia. However, it is clear that they haven't as of now. If something was happening behind closed doors that the public doesn't know about, GOP officials would be saying that it was being handled. That's not what's happening. Russia is getting away with literal murder and someone is complicit. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53231840

I had addressed this, actually. It seems the original source of this was not the CIA, MI6, or any scoop by any journalist, but that it originated first out of a very dubious and sketchy neoconservative think-tank, and then began circulating from there - even among intelligence agents (many of whom have professional, personal, and favour-trading ties to neoconservative foundations, themselves).

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4 minutes ago, Patine said:

I had addressed this, actually. It seems the original source of this was not the CIA, MI6, or any scoop by any journalist, but that it originated first out of a very dubious and sketchy neoconservative think-tank, and then began circulating from there - even among intelligence agents (many of whom have professional, personal, and favour-trading ties to neoconservative foundations, themselves).

Are you hearing yourself? The fact is if these intelligence agencies thought that it was pressing enough that they needed to look into it - and found something there, something bigger is going on. Are you citing this piece of rubbish? https://consortiumnews.com/2020/06/29/this-russia-afghanistan-story-is-western-disinformation/

I know you may not trust the government. In fact, it's probably wise not to in most situations. But do you really think any Democrat wants to go to war with Russia or anything such as that? No, of course not. They want to hold them accountable for actions taken against our military. This isn't a time for waving around conspiracy theories that "it's all a hoax started by a think tank". Administration officials knew about this as far back as February. Top Republicans were briefed on Monday - so they believe that something has happened here because they continue to press for more accountability. Democrats will be briefed today - and I bet that they will do the same. I apologize if you didn't mean to say that it isn't true, but that is what it sounded like. 

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1 minute ago, Hestia11 said:

Are you hearing yourself? The fact is if these intelligence agencies thought that it was pressing enough that they needed to look into it - and found something there, something bigger is going on. Are you citing this piece of rubbish? https://consortiumnews.com/2020/06/29/this-russia-afghanistan-story-is-western-disinformation/

I know you may not trust the government. In fact, it's probably wise not to in most situations. But do you really think any Democrat wants to go to war with Russia or anything such as that? No, of course not. They want to hold them accountable for actions taken against our military. This isn't a time for waving around conspiracy theories that "it's all a hoax started by a think tank". Administration officials knew about this as far back as February. Top Republicans were briefed on Monday - so they believe that something has happened here because they continue to press for more accountability. Democrats will be briefed today - and I bet that they will do the same. I apologize if you didn't mean to say that it isn't true, but that is what it sounded like. 

Are we also talking about the same CIA that has put bounties on soldiers of other nations' militaries through insurgents, including paying Mujahedeen to kill Soviet troops in the very same Afghanistan 30-odd-years ago?

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Are we also talking about the same CIA that has put bounties on soldiers of other nations' militaries through insurgents, including paying Mujahedeen to kill Soviet troops in the very same Afghanistan 30-odd-years ago?

That doesn't discredit the fact that this is happening now. This isn't a time for whataboutisms. I thought you'd know better than to turn to that with me.

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Just now, Hestia11 said:

That doesn't discredit the fact that this is happening now. This isn't a time for whataboutisms. I thought you'd know better than to turn to that with me.

Major nations engaging in endless foreign adventurism and meddling in smaller nations' affairs in such destructive and rapacious ways, and having their agencies of intelligence-gathering double with the modus operandi of terrorist organizations, mostly to support ulterior agendas that do not benefit their common citizens to the point that only outright lies and arbitrary, illegal action get wars going in the first place. The soldiers are ultimately victims, as much as anyone who suffers collateral damage from the effects of war, and the chicken-hawks, propaganda-mill churners, vulture corporate looters, and sociopathic strategists and intelligence chiefs of all major nations who engage in these war efforts - who are the real criminals, regardless of the flag they're under, don't really seem to give a damn about those in uniformed service as people. That is the disgusting part. Something needs to be done about them - ALL of them...

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Just now, Patine said:

Major nations engaging in endless foreign adventurism and meddling in smaller nations' affairs in such destructive and rapacious ways, and having their agencies of intelligence-gathering double with the modus operandi of terrorist organizations, mostly to support ulterior agendas that do not benefit their common citizens to the point that only outright lies and arbitrary, illegal action get wars going in the first place. The soldiers are ultimately victims, as much as anyone who suffers collateral damage from the effects of war, and the chicken-hawks, propaganda-mill churners, vulture corporate looters, and sociopathic strategists and intelligence chiefs of all major nations who engage in these war efforts - who are the real criminals, regardless of the flag they're under, don't really seem to give a damn about those in uniformed service as people. That is the disgusting part. Something needs to be done about them - ALL of them...

It's the Administration and Congress' duty to protect our active soldiers. I think it's actually rather clear that the people who are saying this is a hoax or didn't happen are the ones that don't actually care about the servicepeople, because they're trying to brush the real reason they died under the rug. If it comes out that the Administration didn't do something on purpose or didn't do anything because of gross incompetence, Democrats should exercise the same level of restraint that Republicans did during Benghazi. Haul every one of 'em up on Capitol Hill and grill them about why they didn't protect American servicemen and women. They should be held accountable.

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9 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

It's the Administration and Congress' duty to protect our active soldiers.

Then why don't they? Why do they instead drum up more contrived excuses to send them the soldiers into more egregious, unnecessary, and illegal wars to die in, just to fulfill political vendettas that do not benefit the common citizens or to enrich big corporations? I'm not at all saying the Russians are better, or defending them in the least. The Russian government, military, and FSB/GRU are also chalk full of war criminals of their own. Putin's a damned former KGB officer (just like HW Bush was a former CIA agent). These international, Nuremberg-calibre crimes have to end, and the criminals should face JUSTICE - real justice! Letting all of these endless high crimes and atrocities by major nations' governments, militaries, and intelligence agencies just "go," as though their commonplace-nature made them "acceptable," and "tolerable," and not UNFORGIVABLE, shows a true decline in any real sense of justice, perspective, or proportion - or even humanity - of so many people in the world.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Then why don't they? Why do they instead drum up more contrived excuses to send them the soldiers into more egregious, unnecessary, and illegal wars to die in, just to fulfill political vendettas that do not benefit the common citizens or to enrich big corporations? I'm not at all saying the Russians are better, or defending them in the least. The Russian government, military, and FSB/GRU are also chalk full of war criminals of their own. Putin's a damned former KGB officer (just like HW Bush was a former CIA agent). These international, Nuremberg-calibre crimes have to end, and the criminals should face JUSTICE - real justice! Letting all of these endless high crimes and atrocities by major nations' governments, militaries, and intelligence agencies just "go," as though their commonplace-nature made them "acceptable," and "tolerable," and not UNFORGIVABLE, shows a true decline in any real sense of justice, perspective, or proportion - or even humanity - of so many people in the world.

This is an entirely different issue than the threads beginning. While they are connected somewhat, its not the same issue. 

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1 minute ago, Hestia11 said:

This is an entirely different issue than the threads beginning. While they are connected somewhat, its not the same issue. 

When the Sicilian Mafia demands a judge throw the book at a Los Zetas cartel chief for murder, how does look, metaphorically, speaking?

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2 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

This is an entirely different issue than the threads beginning. While they are connected somewhat, its not the same issue. 

Ron Paul, though I only agree with him on like three or four issues, has the solution to protecting American soldiers...

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4 minutes ago, Patine said:

When the Sicilian Mafia demands a judge throw the book at a Los Zetas cartel chief for murder, how does look, metaphorically, speaking?

Not the same issue once again. These are soldiers doing as they are told that are being murdered. Not okay.

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Just now, Hestia11 said:

Not the same issue once again. These are soldiers doing as they are told that are being murdered. Not okay.

The problem is, in the broader scope, there are two criminal parties at work - the Russians paying the bounties, and the American government and generals who sent them there, have them STILL there, after 19 years, and give them their orders.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

The problem is, in the broader scope, there are two criminal parties at work - the Russians paying the bounties, and the American government and generals who sent them there, have them STILL there, after 19 years, and give them their orders.

The problem right now is the bounties resulting in murders. The government of Afghanistan is very unstable and unlikely to last in the event the US leaves immediately. Does that mean to drain endless resources and to stay there permanently? Of course not. We must leave soon. But it is a difficult decision that could harm Afghani lives. 

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We never should have gone in to Afghanistan.  Unfortunately, Bush and Obama preferred to stay and fight for nothing rather than admit the pointlessness of it.  Easy to do when it's somebody else's family doing the actual fighting.

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10 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

The problem right now is the bounties resulting in murders. The government of Afghanistan is very unstable and unlikely to last in the event the US leaves immediately. Does that mean to drain endless resources and to stay there permanently? Of course not. We must leave soon. But it is a difficult decision that could harm Afghani lives. 

You see, the U.S. Government and the Pentagon have already failed those soldiers, and failed in keeping them safe. Let me explain. This October will be 19 years in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden is dead. Mohammed Omar is dead. All of the major, competent, charismatic, and worthwhile leaders there of al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Jamaat-I-Islami, ISIS, etc. except those in exile in Pakistan, are dead. Those groups still EXSIT there, as military forces that hold land, terrorize the population, and plunder resources, but they are headless of any true leaders of value. BUT, the nation is falling apart at the seams. And next to NO ONE in Afghanistan, other than the inner circle of the nominal, on-paper "government," in Kabul being propped up by them, wants the U.S.-led Coalition forces there, ultimately. The more the Coalition forces dally there, the worse the country will almost certainly become when the inevitable withdrawal happens. Until, then, soldiers will die of attrition unnecessarily, for no appreciable gain, for a conflict that should have been tied up long ago. The U.S. Government and the Pentagon have already failed in protecting American soldiers, and instead are leading to pointless. And this is WITHOUT the bounties (if any have actually even been fulfilled). The goals set when Afghanistan was invaded were fulfilled in Obama's first term. There's no need to further endanger American soldiers - from the many potential perils - by remaining there. Afghanistan will NOT get any better by a prolonged occupation - quite the opposite.

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7 minutes ago, Patine said:

You see, the U.S. Government and the Pentagon have already failed those soldiers, and failed in keeping them safe. Let me explain. This October will be 19 years in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden is dead. Mohammed Omar is dead. All of the major, competent, charismatic, and worthwhile leaders there of al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Jamaat-I-Islami, ISIS, etc. except those in exile in Pakistan, are dead. Those groups still EXSIT there, as military forces that hold land, terrorize the population, and plunder resources, but they are headless of any true leaders of value. BUT, the nation is falling apart at the seams. And next to NO ONE in Afghanistan, other than the inner circle of the nominal, on-paper "government," in Kabul being propped up by them, wants the U.S.-led Coalition forces there, ultimately. The more the Coalition forces dally there, the worse the country will almost certainly become when the inevitable withdrawal happens. Until, then, soldiers will die of attrition unnecessarily, for no appreciable gain, for a conflict that should have been tied up long ago. The U.S. Government and the Pentagon have already failed in protecting American soldiers, and instead are leading to pointless. And this is WITHOUT the bounties (if any have actually even been fulfilled). The goals set when Afghanistan was invaded were fulfilled in Obama's first term. There's no need to further endanger American soldiers - from the many potential perils - by remaining there. Afghanistan will NOT get any better by a prolonged occupation - quite the opposite.

Agreed but none of this excuses Russian actions which is the intent of the original post.

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1 minute ago, Hestia11 said:

Agreed but none of this excuses Russian actions which is the intent of the original post.

Is anyone willing to start a nuclear over war it? That is, unfortunately - and galls me to all Hell - what it comes down to bring real justice to the governments of 10 nations in the world today - possibly 11. :(

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Is anyone willing to start a nuclear over war it? That is, unfortunately - and galls me to all Hell - what it comes down to bring real justice to the governments of 10 nations in the world today - possibly 11. :(

Yeah - unfortunately. There are obviously actions to take, whether or not they'll actually work is another thing.

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1 minute ago, Hestia11 said:

Yeah - unfortunately. There are obviously actions to take, whether or not they'll actually work is another thing.

I mean, the CIA could pay bounties to Ukrainians to kill Russian Soldiers in Donetsk and Luhansk, but it would cease, right there, to be seeking justice, and become Albanian-style Vendetta or Hatfield and McCoy-style feuding, instead, with no ethical high ground at all...

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12 minutes ago, Patine said:

I mean, the CIA could pay bounties to Ukrainians to kill Russian Soldiers in Donetsk and Luhansk, but it would cease, right there, to be seeking justice, and become Albanian-style Vendetta or Hatfield and McCoy-style feuding, instead, with no ethical high ground at all...

But there aren't any Russians in Eastern Ukraine ;) 

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2 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

But there aren't any Russians in Eastern Ukraine ;) 

Supposedly, yes. ;)

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