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vcczar

Could DC Statehood be the driving issue of the General Election?

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5 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

They would say the U.S. could join *them*.

Minneapolis would be a joke for sure.  Can only imagine the difference in President Trump handling the railway crisis, teachers strikes, etc.  Would be like living in a dystopian novel for those there lol.

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13 minutes ago, CPE said:

To be honest, most Canadian Tories I have met are very different from the traditional GOP supporters in the States.  Would be an interesting turn of events if the Wexit movement ever took off and had Alberta and Saskatchewan ending up in the US though...

Interesting to think about what would have happened had Cuba ended up as part of the United States though, or even Puerto Rico (as a state) for more modern times.

Annexation to the U.S. is not actually the goal of Wexit Party platform at all, and many of it's declared supporters would view it as a betrayal if such negotiations were even started. Although I don't support the Wexit Party movement, and I believe it's completely unnecessary and a path to acrimony and ruin, the ethics commissioner of the Alberta Provincial Branch of the Wexit Party, and the Candidate for the Alberta Independence Party in the 2019 Alberta General Election, lives right across the street from me, and we have a very interesting and civil dialogue, despite strongly disagreeing on issues (the type that seems to be getting more and more difficult in the U.S. right now).

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I prefer smaller-scale polities. Nation-states on the scale of 320M, or even 35M, is literally mind-boggling.

Much rather live in a country with the scale of Iceland than India, say.

I think the U.S. would probably be better off divided into 50 countries, not adding more states.

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I identify most with my local region, then my province, then my country, then my continent.

But in reality, there's more in common in many ways between where I live and, say, Oregon, than Ontario.

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11 minutes ago, Patine said:

Annexation to the U.S. is not actually the goal of Wexit Party platform at all, and many of it's declared supporters would view it as a betrayal if such negotiations were even started. Although I don't support the Wexit Party movement, and I believe it's completely unnecessary and a path to acrimony and ruin, the ethics commissioner of the Alberta Provincial Branch of the Wexit Party, and the Candidate for the Alberta Independence Party in the 2019 Alberta General Election, lives right across the street from me, and we have a very interesting and civil dialogue, despite strongly disagreeing on issues (the type that seems to be getting more and more difficult in the U.S. right now).

Well aware that they do not want annexation by the US (even most of the Canadian Tories I have met have some level of contempt and disdain for their politics), but I wonder how long they would ever be able to last as independent nations should they ever attain to that status.  The oil industry isn't what is used to be, and it is a whole different game administrating as a sovereign nation than just being a part of one.  Even if Alberta and Saskatchewan theoretically form a union and share costs/resources, they would be in a rough position should hard times ever come, in my mind at least.  Landlocked, and with Ottawa only probably taking them back with territorial status, there is only one other nation they could ever turn to for help.  Being in the US sphere of influence would probably end up with them becoming a state somewhere in the future; not anytime immediately, but eventually.

Agreed on the part about having civil discourse.  Call me old-fashioned, but I think this instant gratification culture perpetuated by societies recent adaptation of social media has only accelerated this trend of "radicalization" (if you will).  A lot of today's young people do not realize that change in society rarely happens overnight, and that it often takes a collective buy-in from many sides to actually work on fixing issues in our different locales.  I think that modern technology (particularly most forms of social media) have helped to perpetuate an illusion that life is black-and-white (not racially speaking, but in abstract terms), especially in politics.  Many do not realize that there are liberal leaning individuals in the US who support 2A rights for instance, or conservative leaning individuals in favour of comprehensive healthcare reform.  Too many sharp voices are amplified, while many forget that there are many values shared in common.  At the end of the day, we all are people looking to protect our families, businesses, friends, etc., most just disagree on how to do it.

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20 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

I prefer smaller-scale polities. Nation-states on the scale of 320M, or even 35M, is literally mind-boggling.

Much rather live in a country with the scale of Iceland than India, say.

I think the U.S. would probably be better off divided into 50 countries, not adding more states.

That actually depends at times lol.  Speaking as someone who lives in a relatively small country myself (compared to say the USA, Russia, China, etc.), who you know definitely becomes much more important than what you know at times lol.

I recognize that applies everywhere, but it is definitely more pronounced in smaller jurisdictions.

The US kind of tried that with the Articles of Confederation, did not work out too good then but at least it led to a much better version.  The landlocked states would get a really short end of the stick lol.

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It won't be the driving issue of the campaign because the vast majority of voters don't care and almost all of those who do care already know who they're voting for.

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31 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

I prefer smaller-scale polities. Nation-states on the scale of 320M, or even 35M, is literally mind-boggling.

Much rather live in a country with the scale of Iceland than India, say.

I think the U.S. would probably be better off divided into 50 countries, not adding more states.

I'd be okay with this so long as there is some sort of document that will guarantee full civil rights, full equality, full voting rights, etc. as a requirement for the nation breaking apart. Basically, an updated Bill of Rights. In addition to this, there should be a couple of years for people to migrate to their new country. I'd probably move to Massachusetts if this happened--they seem to do about everything right. 

33 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

I identify most with my local region, then my province, then my country, then my continent.

But in reality, there's more in common in many ways between where I live and, say, Oregon, than Ontario.

I'm the opposite for the most part. I identify most with the country, possibly because I haven't lived my entire life in one region. I was born in Dallas, TX. Lived in small town TX from age of 2 to age of 7. Back to Dallas. Lived in the suburbs for a year or two. Back to Dallas. Ping ponged between Austin, TX and small TX towns outside of Austin. Moved to NYC for 5 years, living in three boroughs during that time. Back to small town Texas for a year, then back to Austin for 2 years. Now I've been in Philadelphia for 3 years. I've also spend almost a year's worth of time in New Orleans, and a few months worth of time in Boston/Cambridge. So, this might be why I have a hard time identifying with any local area, but I think culturally and intellectually, I feel akin to New England. Most of my American ancestors were from New England, by coincidence. 

However, I think the following is most important: The international community > My hemisphere > my continent > my county > my region > my state > my county > my city > my neighborhood > my family and friend > myself. 

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1 hour ago, vcczar said:

What do you think should be required for statehood? They have the population and, I assume, they desire it. Their population is greater than a few states. 

Two.  It’s greater than two states.  Fewer people live in DC than live in Alaska.

I used to work in DC.  It is largely a commuter city.  People live in Maryland (as I did) or Virginia and commute into DC.  Yes, they of course have a local population as well, but it’s just a city with some fancy buildings and statues in it. It is not a state.

DC has a total surface of 68 square miles, including water.  By comparison, our smallest state Rhode Island has a surface of 1,212 square miles.

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I think the DC Statehood issue would fire up Trump's voters more than Democrats. The threat of having 2 guaranteed Democratic seats in the Senate (and probably very far-left at that) would be a greater push than the potential benefit that Democrats see. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if more people on the center would oppose such a plan than support it.

Though if Biden were elected and the Dems took the Senate, the issue still wouldn't hold water. Article I, Section 8, Clause 17 of the Constitution gives Congress exclusive legislative authority over the federal district. Plus, the 23rd Amendment offers an addition obstacle.

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36 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

I think the DC Statehood issue would fire up Trump's voters more than Democrats. The threat of having 2 guaranteed Democratic seats in the Senate (and probably very far-left at that) would be a greater push than the potential benefit that Democrats see. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if more people on the center would oppose such a plan than support it.

If Biden were elected and the Dems took the Senate, the issue still wouldn't hold water. Article I, Section 8, Clause 17 of the Constitution gives Congress exclusive legislative authority over the federal district. Plus, the 23rd Amendment offers an addition obstacle.

 

1 hour ago, Actinguy said:

Two.  It’s greater than two states.  Fewer people live in DC than live in Alaska.

I used to work in DC.  It is largely a commuter city.  People live in Maryland (as I did) or Virginia and commute into DC.  Yes, they of course have a local population as well, but it’s just a city with some fancy buildings and statues in it. It is not a state.

DC has a total surface of 68 square miles, including water.  By comparison, our smallest state Rhode Island has a surface of 1,212 square miles.

 

1 hour ago, vcczar said:

I'd be okay with this so long as there is some sort of document that will guarantee full civil rights, full equality, full voting rights, etc. as a requirement for the nation breaking apart. Basically, an updated Bill of Rights. In addition to this, there should be a couple of years for people to migrate to their new country. I'd probably move to Massachusetts if this happened--they seem to do about everything right. 

I'm the opposite for the most part. I identify most with the country, possibly because I haven't lived my entire life in one region. I was born in Dallas, TX. Lived in small town TX from age of 2 to age of 7. Back to Dallas. Lived in the suburbs for a year or two. Back to Dallas. Ping ponged between Austin, TX and small TX towns outside of Austin. Moved to NYC for 5 years, living in three boroughs during that time. Back to small town Texas for a year, then back to Austin for 2 years. Now I've been in Philadelphia for 3 years. I've also spend almost a year's worth of time in New Orleans, and a few months worth of time in Boston/Cambridge. So, this might be why I have a hard time identifying with any local area, but I think culturally and intellectually, I feel akin to New England. Most of my American ancestors were from New England, by coincidence. 

However, I think the following is most important: The international community > My hemisphere > my continent > my county > my region > my state > my county > my city > my neighborhood > my family and friend > myself. 

 

2 hours ago, pilight said:

It won't be the driving issue of the campaign because the vast majority of voters don't care and almost all of those who do care already know who they're voting for.

 

2 hours ago, CPE said:

That actually depends at times lol.  Speaking as someone who lives in a relatively small country myself (compared to say the USA, Russia, China, etc.), who you know definitely becomes much more important than what you know at times lol.

I recognize that applies everywhere, but it is definitely more pronounced in smaller jurisdictions.

The US kind of tried that with the Articles of Confederation, did not work out too good then but at least it led to a much better version.  The landlocked states would get a really short end of the stick lol.

 

2 hours ago, admin_270 said:

I identify most with my local region, then my province, then my country, then my continent.

But in reality, there's more in common in many ways between where I live and, say, Oregon, than Ontario.

Interesting case and point - in Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina, whose government structures are strongly based on the rough framework of that of the United States, their Federal Districts for their capital cities are not States (or a Province, in Argentina's case), in Constitutional powers or authority, but are still Federal Districts, legally, but they have equal Senators to each other State/Province and VOTING members of the Chamber of Deputies (the name of the lower house of all three of those nations' Congresses) regardless.

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2 hours ago, jvikings1 said:

I think the DC Statehood issue would fire up Trump's voters more than Democrats.

The more I think about it, the more my guess is this is right.

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I agree with people who argue that DC was never meant to be a state, due to it being the capital of the country and where the government operates, it should be its own district. But there are 700,000 people that do not have representation in congress despite being a part of society and have to follow the same laws passed by congress that every other state does. There is no reason they should not be given representation in congress. I've seen some republicans say "why not just make it a part of Maryland", but the that just defeats your main argument of DC being it's own district like the founders intended. Unfortunately, no matter what, any effort to get DC representation in congress will be seen as a power grab by democrats. 

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3 hours ago, Patine said:

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting case and point - in Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina, whose government structures are strongly based on the rough framework of that of the United States, their Federal Districts for their capital cities are not States (or a Province, in Argentina's case), in Constitutional powers or authority, but are still Federal Districts, legally, but they have equal Senators to each other State/Province and VOTING members of the Chamber of Deputies (the name of the lower house of all three of those nations' Congresses) regardless.

Yeah it’s strange this isn’t brought up more. 

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I definetly think it requires a constitutional Amendment. The most prudent thing to do here is what I suggested in the other thread and shrink the distrinct to just include the seat of the 3 federal branches. The rest can exist in Maryland.

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It might not be THE issue of 2020, but at least some issue.

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15 hours ago, MysteryKnight said:

But there are 700,000 people that do not have representation in congress

They have representation in the House, just not the Senate. In the House, their representative is a delegate.

The simplest place to start is to upgrade that to a full voting member.

Going from 0 -> 2 Senators is a much, much bigger change, causing them to go from under-representation to vast over-representation relative to most citizens.

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13 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

They have representation in the House, just not the Senate. In the House, their representative is a delegate.

The simplest place to start is to upgrade that to a full voting member.

Going from 0 -> 2 Senators is a much, much bigger change, causing them to go from under-representation to vast over-representation relative to most citizens.

Ted Cruz suggested that he would agree with statehood if Alexandria was given back to Washington DC. In his Tweet, he seemed to think that this would guarantee Democrats 2 Senators and the GOP 2 Senators. However, I asked Larry Sabato if this was true, but he said Virginia would be much more competitive for the GOP, but that it would still be a lean Blue state, which means Cruz's suggestion would backfire, if true. 

Some Republicans have suggested an Amendment that doesn't make sense:

  • DC will reunited with Maryland
  • DC will have to pay for all the new flags adding a 51st star. 

What doesn't make sense to me is how is there a 51st state if DC is joining Maryland? https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/gop-amendments-to-dc-statehood-bill-call-for-dc-to-join-maryland-pay-for-changing-flags/2344161/

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38 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Ted Cruz suggested that he would agree with statehood if Alexandria was given back to Washington DC. In his Tweet, he seemed to think that this would guarantee Democrats 2 Senators and the GOP 2 Senators. However, I asked Larry Sabato if this was true, but he said Virginia would be much more competitive for the GOP, but that it would still be a lean Blue state, which means Cruz's suggestion would backfire, if true. 

Yeah it would take giving like all of fairfax county to DC to make Virginia red again.

38 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Some Republicans have suggested an Amendment that doesn't make sense:

  • DC will reunited with Maryland
  • DC will have to pay for all the new flags adding a 51st star. 

What doesn't make sense to me is how is there a 51st state if DC is joining Maryland? https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/gop-amendments-to-dc-statehood-bill-call-for-dc-to-join-maryland-pay-for-changing-flags/2344161/

Sometimes my party never ceases to disappoint me. That is more and more common these days.

I do support reunification as I've said though.

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3 hours ago, vcczar said:

Ted Cruz suggested that he would agree with statehood if Alexandria was given back to Washington DC. In his Tweet, he seemed to think that this would guarantee Democrats 2 Senators and the GOP 2 Senators. However, I asked Larry Sabato if this was true, but he said Virginia would be much more competitive for the GOP, but that it would still be a lean Blue state, which means Cruz's suggestion would backfire, if true. 

Some Republicans have suggested an Amendment that doesn't make sense:

  • DC will reunited with Maryland
  • DC will have to pay for all the new flags adding a 51st star. 

What doesn't make sense to me is how is there a 51st state if DC is joining Maryland? https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/gop-amendments-to-dc-statehood-bill-call-for-dc-to-join-maryland-pay-for-changing-flags/2344161/

I think of arranging a scheme where 700 000 Americans are given the voting representation they deserve, and have denied since 1790, in Congress - "taxation without representation," the stated original gripe that led to the American Revolution now used as a rallying call by DC Statehood activists - based on balancing carefully PARTISAN representation, and talking down to the residents of the city that their current records make the issue a problem in partisan and political circles in a condescending and demeaning way  and have to be "balanced," before any action is taken is frankly DISGUSTING and REPREHENSIBLE - and a betrayal by their own government.

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Shouldn't be. If the people of D.C. want voting representation in Congress they can become part of Maryland, just like the "Virginia side" of D.C. did in the 19th century. It would even gain one Democrat House seat. But I think this is a ploy to get two more Democrat Senators. Ultimately this will be a non-issue for this election though I think.

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5 hours ago, servo75 said:

Shouldn't be. If the people of D.C. want voting representation in Congress they can become part of Maryland, just like the "Virginia side" of D.C. did in the 19th century. It would even gain one Democrat House seat. But I think this is a ploy to get two more Democrat Senators. Ultimately this will be a non-issue for this election though I think.

If my memory regarding American history is correct, wasn't DC created as a separate district solely because it could not be decided which state should hold the honour of hosting the American capital?  The land originally came from Maryland and Virginia already, correct?

Funny how much irony there often is in history.

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On 6/27/2020 at 1:50 AM, Reagan04 said:

I definetly think it requires a constitutional Amendment. The most prudent thing to do here is what I suggested in the other thread and shrink the distrinct to just include the seat of the 3 federal branches. The rest can exist in Maryland.

Ceding land back to states still poses a potential constitutional question that would take a while to be resolved in the courts.

On 6/27/2020 at 3:11 PM, vcczar said:

Some Republicans have suggested an Amendment that doesn't make sense:

  • DC will reunited with Maryland
  • DC will have to pay for all the new flags adding a 51st star. 

What doesn't make sense to me is how is there a 51st state if DC is joining Maryland? https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/gop-amendments-to-dc-statehood-bill-call-for-dc-to-join-maryland-pay-for-changing-flags/2344161/

I am fairly certain that the paying for new flags amendment was one of those kill pill amendments that minority parties commonly propose with the goal of sinking legislation if it can slip through.

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11 hours ago, servo75 said:

Shouldn't be. If the people of D.C. want voting representation in Congress they can become part of Maryland, just like the "Virginia side" of D.C. did in the 19th century. It would even gain one Democrat House seat. But I think this is a ploy to get two more Democrat Senators. Ultimately this will be a non-issue for this election though I think.

This is an example of the "talking down to DC voters in a patronizing and demeaning way saying they can only have the voting representation is Congress they've been wrongfully and unjustly denied for 230 years if it doesn't unbalance an artificial partisan balance scheme," ideal I've found so disgusting of many posters (not just you) on these forums, and elsewhere.

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7 hours ago, Patine said:

This is an example of the "talking down to DC voters in a patronizing and demeaning way saying they can only have the voting representation is Congress they've been wrongfully and unjustly denied for 230 years if it doesn't unbalance an artificial partisan balance scheme," ideal I've found so disgusting of many posters (not just you) on these forums, and elsewhere.

Or to the contrary, it is a support of the federalist structure of the country which is intended to limit federal power. By limiting the voting powers of those living within the federal district, it checks the power of those who would see a great benefit in a further expanded federal government.

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