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Impeachment Poll

Impeachment Poll  

20 members have voted

  1. 1. According to John Bolton, Trump refused to release military aid to Ukraine until Ukraine investigated Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton. Is this an impeachable offense?

  2. 2. Is the above serious enough for conviction and removal of the president?

  3. 3. Did you support the 2019-2020 impeachment efforts by Democrats?

  4. 4. Would you now support impeachment if impeachment efforts were relaunched?

  5. 5. John Bolton also stated that he, Sec. Pompeo, and Sec. Esper tried to get Trump to release the aid about 10 times and Trump refused. Do you trust John Bolton will be honest about Trump in his upcoming book?

    • I trust John Bolton
    • I trust Donald Trump
    • I do not trust either one of them, but I trust Bolton is probably right about Trump's impeachable offenses (Bolton will allude to several, supposedly)
    • I am very cautious about Bolton, but I lean towards trusting Bolton on this, considering it seems like something Trump would instinctively do.
    • Other.


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9 minutes ago, Patine said:

the standing and palpable animosity between Trump and the Bush family is still an important part of the point I'm making

Of course. A significant part of Trump's primaries campaign in 2015-6 was based on a repudiation of the Bush doctrine in Iraq and to a lesser extent Afghanistan. It's part of the bad blood between him and Jeb Bush.

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And here's Trump's response:

Bolton's book "is a compilation of lies and made up stories, all intended to make me look bad. Many of the ridiculous statements he attributes to me were never made, pure fiction. Just trying to get even for firing him like the sick puppy he is!"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1273603410340843520?s=20

Same as response to many of these sorts of allegations before.

 

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And ...

"Wacko John Bolton’s “exceedingly tedious”(New York Times) book is made up of lies & fake stories. Said all good about me, in print, until the day I fired him. A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war. Never had a clue, was ostracized & happily dumped. What a dope!"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1273468029712707584?s=20

The problem with Bolton is two-fold. 1. There is a possible motive for him to mischaracterize statements, because he was unceremoniously fired. 2. There is a possible motive for him to sensationalize statements because he wants to sell books.

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2 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

And ...

"Wacko John Bolton’s “exceedingly tedious”(New York Times) book is made up of lies & fake stories. Said all good about me, in print, until the day I fired him. A disgruntled boring fool who only wanted to go to war. Never had a clue, was ostracized & happily dumped. What a dope!"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1273468029712707584?s=20

The problem with Bolton is two-fold. 1. There is a possible motive for him to mischaracterize statements, because he was unceremoniously fired. 2. There is a possible motive for him to sensationalize statements because he wants to sell books.

While possible, you're also citing Trump, who is probably the least credible person to use in judging anyone else's trustworthiness. He attacks and belittles anyone that disagrees with him. How many of people that he hired has he called "a dope"? It makes it seem like Trump is terrible at hiring people since he attacks his own appointments as incompetent and wacko. 

Here's a leading US conservative, Bill Kristol, with some comments on John Bolton: 

 

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4 minutes ago, vcczar said:

you're also citing Trump

Yes, but he's the one Bolton is claiming said various things, so the most relevant person to go to first for response. And the response is predictable.

So the question is whether there's corroborating evidence for the substance of certain of Bolton's claims. We'll see what turns up.

5 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Here's a leading US conservative, Bill Kristol

You're right that Kristol is a leading 'NeverTrumper', but he's a pariah and marginal figure in U.S. political conservativism right now.

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Whatever the case with the substance of Bolton's claims, what he's doing is questionable IMO. Get hired as NSA, then get fired (hey, it happens), then write a book to capitalize on your public service while betraying the trust of those you were working with? That alone casts his character into doubt, IMHO. Whether he's giving an accurate picture of things or not in key claims is of course another question, but the context doesn't help.

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Just now, admin_270 said:

Whatever the case with the substance of Bolton's claims, what he's doing is questionable IMO. Get hired as NSA, then get fired (hey, it happens), then write a book to capitalize on your public service while betraying the trust of those you were working with? That alone casts his character into doubt, IMHO. Whether he's giving an accurate picture of things or not in key claims is of course another question, but the context doesn't help.

You left out the possibility that he saw a lot of questionable things and felt it was his duty to expose it. However, I'm most angry that he didn't testify at the impeachment trial, especially when he states that Democrats committed impeachment malpractice by now expanding the scope of the impeachment, since Trump committed numerous impeachable offenses, according to Bolton. 

This comes down to, who does one trust more? Donald Trump, who is arguably the leading textbook example of dishonesty and lies in US politics in post-Nixon America or Bolton, a completely unlikable neocon, who is so obsessed with aggressive interventionism that he could possibly do whatever it takes to show the dangers of Trump's foreign policy. One should also consider the fact that the truth lies somewhere in between, in which case, it still looks awful for Trump's legacy. 

We won't get major corroborating evidence until Pompeo and Esper and some of those still in the cabinet, who are frequently mentioned, are out of office. However, we do have Kelly and TIllerson who have states stuff that aligns with some of what Bolton says. The next step is to get both Kelly, Tillerson, and others to make a statement on Bolton. 

What Bolton says seems very consistent with whatever every critic of Trump that's been hired by Trump and then let go by Trump (or voluntarily resigned) has said about Trump. At some point it is something other than revenge for getting fired if this happens frequently. Obama fired people too, but we never got anyone saying anything about Obama like they said about Trump. 

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@admin_270 another book that's been overshadowed by Bolton's is a book released by Trump's niece. 

It's hard to read. At one point, Donald Trump (pre-presidency) purposely threw a baseball at a 7-year old boy's head , causing a cracking noise. Trump was playing catch and he got so competitive that he kept throwing the ball harder and harder. 

 

Speaking with writer Gwenda Blair in 1990, Barry shared a story about when Donald was a young man and turned a game of catch with Barry's seven year-old son into a cruel contest.
"Donald kept throwing it faster and faster, harder and harder, until I hear this crack and the ball hit David's head. Donald had to beat the seven year-old."

https://www.amazon.com/Too-Much-Never-Enough-Dangerous/dp/1982141468/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1592307074&sr=8-1&linkCode=sl1&tag=aboutcompk-20&linkId=c73acd6cf64ec56264cce90e8bd821ab&language=en_US

The collection of all these book, Mary Trump's, Bolton's, Wolf's, Woodward's, etc. is just highlighting that Trump is a psychopath. 

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37 minutes ago, vcczar said:

While possible, you're also citing Trump, who is probably the least credible person to use in judging anyone else's trustworthiness. He attacks and belittles anyone that disagrees with him. How many of people that he hired has he called "a dope"? It makes it seem like Trump is terrible at hiring people since he attacks his own appointments as incompetent and wacko. 

Here's a leading US conservative, Bill Kristol, with some comments on John Bolton: 

 

I wouldn't call Bill Kristol a leading conservative as much as he'd like to be.

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1 hour ago, vcczar said:

"Donald kept throwing it faster and faster, harder and harder, until I hear this crack and the ball hit David's head. Donald had to beat the seven year-old."

*This* is the evidence that Trump is a sociopath? He accidentally beaned someone with a baseball? How can you 'win' at a game of catch?

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1 hour ago, vcczar said:

You left out the possibility that he saw a lot of questionable things and felt it was his duty to expose it.

Then *this* isn't the way to do it. First of all, he should have resigned, well before he was fired, if that's what he believed at the time. Second, you don't write a book and parade teaser excerpts across hostile media (WP, NYT). Bolton's actions here stink, TBH.

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1 hour ago, SilentLiberty said:

I wouldn't call Bill Kristol a leading conservative as much as he'd like to be.

Yes, better phrased than I put it. He's a used-to-be (and perhaps some day will be leading again, if Trump goes down in flames in Nov. - who knows).

Kristol has an axe to grind against Trump, who is opposed to neo-cons like Kristol for whom another Mid-Eastern-Central-Asian-Northern-African war seems to always be a good idea. Pro-Trump writers tends to despise people like Kristol, laugh at them as clueless intellectual wanna-be's, or use them as foils for everything that was wrong with Conservatism Inc.

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2 hours ago, vcczar said:

The next step is to get both Kelly, Tillerson, and others to make a statement on Bolton. 

Not clear what statement Tillerson could make. He was out on Mar. 31st, 2018. Bolton wasn't in until April 9th, 2018.

But yes, could get corroborating statements from other officials. We'll see.

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53 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

*This* is the evidence that Trump is a sociopath? He accidentally beaned someone with a baseball? How can you 'win' at a game of catch?

Beaning a 7-year old child in the head with enough force to crack a skull is neither a sign of mental health nor is it a sign of accidentally beaning someone. Even Trump would know the danger he was putting that child by drilling a fast ball at a kid's head. It was probably purposeful. 

I'm not sure how one wins a game of catch either. I'm assuming the 7-year old was better at catching the ball than Trump was and it pissed Trump off, and he let it out on the kid. Child abuse and, depending on the extent of the intent, possible attempted murder. 

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9 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Beaning a 7-year old child in the head with enough force to crack a skull is neither a sign of mental health nor is it a sign of accidentally beaning someone. Even Trump would know the danger he was putting that child by drilling a fast ball at a kid's head. It was probably purposeful. 

I'm not sure how one wins a game of catch either. I'm assuming the 7-year old was better at catching the ball than Trump was and it pissed Trump off, and he let it out on the kid. Child abuse and, depending on the extent of the intent, possible attempted murder. 

The quote you reference says she heard a 'crack', not that the child's skull was fractured. Do you have another reference for this which makes that claim?

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13 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I'm assuming the 7-year old was better at catching the ball than Trump was and it pissed Trump off, and he let it out on the kid

Sounds ridiculous to me.

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3 hours ago, admin_270 said:

Yes, but he's the one Bolton is claiming said various things, so the most relevant person to go to first for response. And the response is predictable.

So the question is whether there's corroborating evidence for the substance of certain of Bolton's claims. We'll see what turns up.

You're right that Kristol is a leading 'NeverTrumper', but he's a pariah and marginal figure in U.S. political conservativism right now.

 

3 hours ago, admin_270 said:

Whatever the case with the substance of Bolton's claims, what he's doing is questionable IMO. Get hired as NSA, then get fired (hey, it happens), then write a book to capitalize on your public service while betraying the trust of those you were working with? That alone casts his character into doubt, IMHO. Whether he's giving an accurate picture of things or not in key claims is of course another question, but the context doesn't help.

 

1 hour ago, admin_270 said:

Yes, better phrased than I put it. He's a used-to-be (and perhaps some day will be leading again, if Trump goes down in flames in Nov. - who knows).

Kristol has an axe to grind against Trump, who is opposed to neo-cons like Kristol for whom another Mid-Eastern-Central-Asian-Northern-African war seems to always be a good idea. Pro-Trump writers tends to despise people like Kristol, laugh at them as clueless intellectual wanna-be's, or use them as foils for everything that was wrong with Conservatism Inc.

 

39 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Sounds ridiculous to me.

Because Trump is such an honourable, noble, upstanding, honest, reliable, and emotionally stable and mature leader - his own words and responses should be taken as final word enough in any conflict, and anyone speaking ill of him can only possibly be slander for ulterior motives against such a paragon, right? :wacko:

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10 minutes ago, Wiw said:

This talk about another impeachment, it seems incredibly dangerous...

How so, now?

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

Because Trump is such an honourable, noble, upstanding, honest, reliable, and emotionally stable and mature leader - his own words and responses should be taken as final word enough in any conflict, and anyone speaking ill of him can only possibly be slander for ulterior motives against such a paragon, right?

Oh, definitely.

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9 minutes ago, Patine said:

 

 

 

Because Trump is such an honourable, noble, upstanding, honest, reliable, and emotionally stable and mature leader - his own words and responses should be taken as final word enough in any conflict, and anyone speaking ill of him can only possibly be slander for ulterior motives against such a paragon, right? :wacko:

 

7 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Oh, definitely.

That's what it seems. Very sad. 

55 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Trump has 5 kids. Have any ever claimed something like child abuse?

GIve them time. It might be too dangerous to do so while Trump is alive. 

57 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

The quote you reference says she heard a 'crack', not that the child's skull was fractured. Do you have another reference for this which makes that claim?

Did the baseball crack?

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13 minutes ago, Patine said:

How so, now?

Because if there's a solid case against him, it'll likely end with him snapping and blowing up the White House or something.

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4 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Did the baseball crack?

Not following you here. According to the person making the claim, there was a 'crack' sound, which simply indicates a certain kind of sound. It doesn't indicate a fracture.

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1 minute ago, Wiw said:

Because if there's a solid case against him, it'll likely end with him snapping and blowing up the White House or something.

He can't just blow up the White House. However, I wouldn't put it passed him to do several vengeful acts in retaliation in the two months after he's been defeated by President-Elect Biden, either to make it harder for Biden to do his job or perhaps something that's less obstructionist and more childish, like soil the oval office or something. 

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