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Impeachment Poll

Impeachment Poll  

20 members have voted

  1. 1. According to John Bolton, Trump refused to release military aid to Ukraine until Ukraine investigated Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton. Is this an impeachable offense?

  2. 2. Is the above serious enough for conviction and removal of the president?

  3. 3. Did you support the 2019-2020 impeachment efforts by Democrats?

  4. 4. Would you now support impeachment if impeachment efforts were relaunched?

  5. 5. John Bolton also stated that he, Sec. Pompeo, and Sec. Esper tried to get Trump to release the aid about 10 times and Trump refused. Do you trust John Bolton will be honest about Trump in his upcoming book?

    • I trust John Bolton
    • I trust Donald Trump
    • I do not trust either one of them, but I trust Bolton is probably right about Trump's impeachable offenses (Bolton will allude to several, supposedly)
    • I am very cautious about Bolton, but I lean towards trusting Bolton on this, considering it seems like something Trump would instinctively do.
    • Other.


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I don't necessarily think efforts should be relaunched because of the Ukraine dealings (as that is what the last one was about), but if there is other stuff in it (e.g. China and Turkey, as I read), then yes, it is a different deal and should be relaunched.

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1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

4 months until an election and impeach again? Off-hand, I would say this sounds like a bad idea for Dems.

I don't think they'll do it unless it seems like they have the votes for it to lead to conviction. I think the House might Censure him (sort of a symbolic impeachment-like thing they can do). I think Andrew Jackson and Trump are the only presidents to be formally censured. Jackson for destroying the US Bank and Trump for the "Unite to Right" rally.  Actually, I don't think the censure from Trump passed because this was when the GOP controlled the house, so just Jackson then. 

 

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10 minutes ago, vcczar said:

the votes for it to lead to conviction

If they had 66 votes in the Senate (sounds highly implausible, given the results of the first impeachment trial), this would remove Trump during the 2 months after the election as well.

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28 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

If they had 66 votes in the Senate (sounds highly implausible, given the results of the first impeachment trial), this would remove Trump during the 2 months after the election as well.

Well, they could do it to force Trump to resign rather than face conviction during those 2 months. Of course, GOP would have to be willing to suffer a landslide defeat in the election, but I assume if 20 GOP Senators were ready to turn on Trump, they'd probably already be looking at a landslide defeat. 

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1 minute ago, vcczar said:

Well, they could do it to force Trump to resign rather than face conviction during those 2 months

I'm having deja vu on this. Googling brings up news articles from January.

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23 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

I'm having deja vu on this. Googling brings up news articles from January.

I assume you are googling for recent impeachment news. They haven't talk about new impeachment charges yet. This post is a reaction to tidbits from Bolton's book being released today. 

There isn't just the Ukraine stuff. Trump also apparently asked China to aid him in reelection by buying US products and soybeans. Bolton apparently isn't legally allowed to print the entire conversation. Trump also signaled his approval, apparently, of China's concentration camps for muslims. Trump also told China that Americans wanted the two-term limit on the US presidency removed so Trump could stay in power. 

If, this stuff is true, it really weakens Trump's claim that he's tough on China. Also, embarrasing for Trump, is that Bolton states that even Trump's loyal advisers poke fun at Trump and privately dislike him (Pompeo passed a note to Bolton saying, of Trump, "He's so full of shit.") Bolton also states Trump is fretful, uncertain, and wobbly as a decider, far from the image he tries to project in front of the camera. He had a habit of stating one thing in front of the people, and then not wanting to do it out of fear of failure (Venezuela leadership controversy is the example used). 

Trump didn't know the UK had nukes. He thought Finland was part of Russia. Lots of this kind of basic information that should be known by a president before taking office---if not well before. 

Bolton seems to think that the best part of Trump's presidential executive skills was that he would issue semi-coherent orders that were all over the place in response to questions or events, and he would just leave it up for his secretaries and advisors to interpret what they think he meant, which Bolton says was both a good and a bad thing. 

Overall, and again--if true---this shows a president that is far from ethical and one that is really not all that competent. I can understand someone preferring Trump's policies over Biden's, but I can't understand anyone thinking Trump is a good president. Imagine if Trump knew basic things about politics, foreign affairs, geography, and the Constitution?

We do know that we will likely see dozens of more books like these as soon as he's out of office. He'll have almost no positive legacy. In the unlikely event that he wins reelection, it's almost hard to imagine him not being impeached a 2nd time at some point. 

Some of this information by Bolton isn't even new--for instance, regarding Ukraine, not knowing about UK nukes, and not knowing that Finland wasn't part of Russia. These are just confirming that these occurred. Even the disharmony and secret dislike of Trump among advisors--especially John Kelly--isn't new.  I hadn't known that Pompeo had threatened to resign on a few occasions.  Much of this is just confirmation from things published in other books or from interviews. 

 

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15 minutes ago, vcczar said:

This post is a reaction to tidbits from Bolton's book being released today.

Seems like the question is whether you trust Bolton's claims in the book, and whether further evidence would emerge to support key claims.

17 minutes ago, vcczar said:

He thought Finland was part of Russia.

Heh - it was close, and in the end they only got a part. 😉 As someone with Finnish ancestors, I am glad the Russians were stymied big time.

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I've seen many claims like this, anonymous and on the record, by former White House officials. It seems like they've all more or less bounced off, as Trump would deny whatever was claimed. Michael Wolffe's book was full of this.

I suppose this could be different because Bolton is a former NSA.

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5 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

I suppose this could be different because Bolton is a former NSA.

Yes, secret police agencies tend to have dirt that sticks more, because of a lack of being bound by standard rules of investigation (in violation of most Western Constitutions, making all such groups implements of high state crime against their own people and legal foundations). Analogs to the NSA, like the domestic part of the KGB, as well as Stasi and the Gestapo, could also destroy powerful political figures' careers in those countries, too.

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i’m probably in the minority on this, but i honestly hope Trump gets impeached and removed just so we get a Pence/Haley ticket. imo that’s the only hope for Republicans to win this election

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11 minutes ago, Isaacr88 said:

i’m probably in the minority on this, but i honestly hope Trump gets impeached and removed just so we get a Pence/Haley ticket. imo that’s the only hope for Republicans to win this election

Pence is one of the symptoms, and part of one of the branches of symptoms, of all that was wrong with pre-Trump Republican ideology. The Bush Family and McCain represented another such branch of symptoms. Not that Trump was an improvement - just a different sort of beast to the savage menagerie.

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1 hour ago, vcczar said:

Trump also apparently asked China to aid him in reelection by buying US products and soybeans. Bolton apparently isn't legally allowed to print the entire conversation. Trump also signaled his approval, apparently, of China's concentration camps for muslims. Trump also told China that Americans wanted the two-term limit on the US presidency removed so Trump could stay in power.

 

Does the book say how Xi or anyone else in China actually responded to this? It seems less than obvious to me that Trump getting re-elected is necessarily in China's best interests anyway. He's probably softer on their human rights record than Biden would be, but he also has a penchant for trade wars and for impulsive behavior in general. Xi might not be too inclined to do him any favors.

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1 minute ago, RI Democrat said:

Does the book say how Xi or anyone else in China actually responded to this? It seems less than obvious to me that Trump getting re-elected is necessarily in China's best interests anyway. He's probably softer on their human rights record than Biden would be, but he also has a penchant for trade wars and for impulsive behavior in general. Xi might not be too inclined to do him any favors.

The book hasn't been released yet. The information comes from tidbits released today by various news sources. 

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1 hour ago, vcczar said:

Trump also signaled his approval, apparently, of China's concentration camps for muslims.

 

Oh, yes, the U.S. had those, too. But they were in full swing during the tenures of Trump's two predecessors. They were in such places as Guantanamo Bay, and locations in Bulgaria, Romania, Uzbekistan, and a few other countries.

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Re Xi, here's the key quote from the WP article.

“He then, stunningly, turned the conversation to the coming U.S. presidential election, alluding to China’s economic capability to affect the ongoing campaigns, pleading with Xi to ensure he’d win,” Bolton writes. “He stressed the importance of farmers, and increased Chinese purchases of soybeans and wheat in the electoral outcome. I would print Trump’s exact words but the government’s prepublication review process has decided otherwise.”

I have a hard time believing Trump would 'plead' with anyone. "I would tell you what Trump really said, but I can't!" OK ...

But the general point is obviously true. Chinese economic behaviour could affect the U.S. election.

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Reading through that WP article, some of the alleged quotes are pretty funny.

"Describing the conflict in Afghanistan, Trump said: “This was done by a stupid person named George Bush.”"

lol.

"Bolton described Trump’s inordinate interest in Pompeo delivering an autographed copy of Elton John’s “Rocket Man” on CD to Kim"

LOL.

"Trump repeatedly told Mattis that the defense official had been given a chance but had failed. “I gave you what you asked for: Unlimited authority, no holds barred. You’re losing. You’re getting your ass kicked. You failed,” Trump says."

ROTFL!!!

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5 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Reading through that WP article, some of the alleged quotes are pretty funny.

"Describing the conflict in Afghanistan, Trump said: “This was done by a stupid person named George Bush.”"

lol.

"Bolton described Trump’s inordinate interest in Pompeo delivering an autographed copy of Elton John’s “Rocket Man” on CD to Kim"

LOL.

"Trump repeatedly told Mattis that the defense official had been given a chance but had failed. “I gave you what you asked for: Unlimited authority, no holds barred. You’re losing. You’re getting your ass kicked. You failed,” Trump says."

ROTFL!!!

What's so funny about the George Bush comment? I'd say that would be one of an immensely tiny number of Trump quotes - or alleged Trump quotes, I'd actually agree with. Except that "stupid," would not quite be the failing or criticism or negative motivating trait I, personally, would use.

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12 minutes ago, Patine said:

What's so funny about the George Bush comment?

It's funny in the way he's (allegedly) slamming Bush, a living former Republican President.

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5 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

It's funny in the way he's (allegedly) slamming Bush, a living former Republican President.

Isn't that par for the course in American politics? Why should a retired, but living U.S. President be considered above reproach from criticism, even by a sitting U.S. President? It's not like American politics has any real solid taboos on debate and denunciation, at the end of the day, really. And, the Republican Party of the United States had such a tumultuous bloodbath and virtual civil war in the 2016 Primaries, and Trump already ridiculed George W. Bush's younger brother and mother mercilessly, leading to the whole Bush family making a public show of snubbing by endorsing no one, I pretty much think the gloves are already off, here.

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7 minutes ago, Patine said:

Isn't that par for the course in American politics?

Really? Can you find an example of a President saying something similar about a previous, but still living at the time of statement, President of the same party?

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5 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Really? Can you find an example of a President saying something similar about a previous, but still living at the time of statement, President of the same party?

That would mean sifting through a lot of Presidential monologue. It's not that important to me. Although, the latter part of my post (which I notice you didn't quote) about the standing and palpable animosity between Trump and the Bush family is still an important part of the point I'm making.

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