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Ready for a lot more push back against crazy government policies?

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With news that the U.S. now has 10,000,000 unemployment claims in the last two weeks (think that's bad? Canada's is worse per capita), we are now getting objective metrics for the sheer scale of damage done by lock-down policies. There's much more of this to come if governments maintain their course.

Think your job is safe? Think again. Massive economic contraction will affect basically everyone - whether it's being laid off or reductions in real-income.

It is better that people understand sooner than later - before their economies are damaged beyond salvaging. Before there's another depression that will cause the Great Depression to be renamed the 'Little Great Depression'.

Here's hoping a critical mass of people wake up and start to push back hard against their governments' policies. There's still time.

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12 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

With news that the U.S. now has 10,000,000 unemployment claims in the last two weeks (think that's bad? Canada's is worse per capita), we are now getting objective metrics for the sheer scale of damage done by lock-down policies. There's much more of this to come if governments maintain their course.

Think your job is safe? Think again. Massive economic contraction will affect basically everyone - whether it's being laid off or reductions in real-income.

It is better that people understand sooner than later - before their economies are damaged beyond salvaging. Before there's another depression that will cause the Great Depression to be renamed the 'Little Great Depression'.

Here's hoping a critical mass of people wake up and start to push back hard against their governments' policies. There's still time.

Another economics over human lives post. This is why I detest the current state and ethos of Free-Market Capitalism and Corporatism - because of the view of profit, economic stability, and "prosperity," being more valuable that human lives - sometimes many human lives. I've already seen people and work in utterly sub-human conditions, and wars fought (like the Iraq War, recently), and horrible regimes kept afloat (like Saudi Arabia), and blind eyes turned to monstrous lapses in standards and ethics to justify "economic gain." I'm sorry, but I don't worship at the Gilded Temple of Mammon, and I view any human life anywhere in the world in any circumstance as more inherently valuable than all the money and engines of commerce on the globe.

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3 minutes ago, Patine said:

Another economics over human lives post.

No it's not. Destroy the economy and you end up causing more deaths than you prevent.

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5 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

No it's not. Destroy the economy and you end up causing more deaths than you prevent.

I think you're out of touch here, and it hasn't REALLY sunk in to you what's going on. Like Andy Warhol said that he felt he was living his life from an outside observer's point-of-view, like watching TV, not taking it all any more seriously or in a personal sense than a TV watcher treats the show they're watching, before shaken out of that detached reverie by being shot, attempted to be murdered, and permanently injured by Valerie Solanas. This is the impression I'm getting.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

I think you're out of touch here, and it hasn't REALLY sunk in to you what's going on.

What exactly hasn't really sunk in for me?

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7 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

No it's not. Destroy the economy and you end up causing more deaths than you prevent.

The US already has more than 234k known positive cases, with 5,600 deaths so far (and we don't waste tests on dead people, so that number is lower than reality).  That's WITH the preventative measures in place which you decry, and both numbers are going to keep growing.

You think most people are going to keep going to restaurants when those numbers skyrocket without the precautions in place?

The economy is wrecked either way.  Let's hunker down and get through it, rather than pretend nothing is wrong and suffer for years instead of months.

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1 minute ago, Actinguy said:

he US already has more than 234k known positive cases, with 5,600 deaths so far

The U.S. has 2.7 *million* deaths per year on average. Coronavirus is *one risk* among many. Destroy your economy and many other risks go up.

3 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

The economy is wrecked either way.

This seems the substantive response. Well, the economy is going to be destroyed anyway, so might as well destroy it through government mandate.

Again, the choice isn't lock-down or let it rip. There are other, better answers to this, that minimize deaths due to coronavirus while minimizing deaths due to a destroyed economy.

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7 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

The U.S. has 2.7 *million* deaths per year on average. Coronavirus is *one risk* among many. Destroy your economy and many other risks go up.

This seems the substantive response. Well, the economy is going to be destroyed anyway, so might as well destroy it through government mandate.

Again, the choice isn't lock-down or let it rip. There are other, better answers to this, that minimize deaths due to coronavirus while minimizing deaths due to a destroyed economy.

Please write to your representatives with your better answers, I guess, that nobody else was able to come up with.  Be the person who saves us all.

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Just now, Actinguy said:

Please write to your representatives with your better answers, I guess, that nobody else was able to come up with.  Be the person who saves us all.

What do you think I've been writing about the last 2 weeks?

With these numbers, I'm guessing that, indeed, more and more Representatives, Governors, and the President are going to start looking at other, more balanced, responses.

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1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

What do you think I've been writing about the last 2 weeks?

With these numbers, I'm guessing that, indeed, more and more Representatives, Governors, and the President are going to start looking at other, more balanced, responses.

You're writing to us.  We don't matter.  Write to the people actually making the decisions, if you really believe that the insight you are offering is new.

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18 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Please write to your representatives with your better answers, I guess, that nobody else was able to come up with.  Be the person who saves us all.

To be pedantic, he has MP's and MLA's, much as I do, not Congressional and State Representatives, but that's mostly pedantry and the fact that the handling of the situation is somewhat different up here.

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43 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

You're writing to us.  We don't matter.  Write to the people actually making the decisions, if you really believe that the insight you are offering is new.

I'm actually not writing these posts to you, @Actinguy . Not sure why you keep responding, though, if you think it doesn't matter.

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7 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

I'm actually not writing these posts to you, @Actinguy . Not sure why you keep responding, though, if you think it doesn't matter.

I said "us".  The people on this forum -- your audience.  I am responding because I am worried that because you are otherwise the authority -- after all, you are both the forum administrator and the designer of the game that brought us here -- some will disproportionately believe you over the other advice they find online.  And in this case, that could lead to more deaths.

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1 minute ago, Actinguy said:

some will disproportionately believe you over the other advice they find online

Believe that current actions are crushing the economy?

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1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

Believe that current actions are crushing the economy?

Nobody is disputing that this is the case.  Rather than me putting words into your mouth, what specifically do you want to be done about it?  Not generalities -- actual decisions that you want to see undertaken.

It is easy to criticize every answer in a crisis as not being good enough.

It is much harder to actually have to make the decisions when lives and, yes, livelihoods hang in the balance.

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1 hour ago, Actinguy said:

Not generalities -- actual decisions that you want to see undertaken.

I've said much about this already in threads you have been responding to, but for those who have ears ...

1. Strong short-term lock-down measures to buy time. At most several weeks. Make this clear because it requires very high levels of buy in and compliance from the public, or it won't work, and the short-term economic damage is less if everyone understands the time frame (they won't simply stop spending money in the short-term, which is what is happening).

2. Aggressive focus on ramping up testing, better treatments, production, antibody testing, tracing technologies, and so on with the time you've bought.

3. $2,000 per adult per month UBI (can be taxed back), indefinite hold on institutional loan payments and rents. This helps blunt the economic carnage brought about by even a short-term lock-down.

4. Switch to targeted approach - focus continued lock-down on regions and people who are most at risk, while ramping up the economy. Antibody test allows people who have already had it to return to work force. Start with youngest (very low mortality rates) at phased intervals to allow herd immunity affects.

Something like that. I'm happy to debate details, my point is that this is about much more than coronavirus mortalities.

 

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1 hour ago, admin_270 said:

I've said much about this already in threads you have been responding to, but for those who have ears ...

1. Strong short-term lock-down measures to buy time. At most several weeks. Make this clear because it requires very high levels of buy in and compliance from the public, or it won't work, and the short-term economic damage is less if everyone understands the time frame (they won't simply stop spending money in the short-term, which is what is happening).

2. Aggressive focus on ramping up testing, better treatments, production, antibody testing, tracing technologies, and so on with the time you've bought.

3. $2,000 per adult per month UBI (can be taxed back), indefinite hold on institutional loan payments and rents. This helps blunt the economic carnage brought about by even a short-term lock-down.

4. Switch to targeted approach - focus continued lock-down on regions and people who are most at risk, while ramping up the economy. Antibody test allows people who have already had it to return to work force. Start with youngest (very low mortality rates) at phased intervals to allow herd immunity affects.

Something like that. I'm happy to debate details, my point is that this is about much more than coronavirus mortalities.

 

1. What happens when they have to back track if the several weeks doesn't work and our cases continue to rise? We just let it rip and let people die? That doesn't seem like the best response to me. If we say, April 30, we will be back in business. When it comes to April 30 and if we have 500k cases, they say, oh whoops, nope, now it's May 30, the stock market plunges even more than it would if we delay it until a not set date. 

2. Agreed. We have problems with not enough testing nationwide.

3. Agreed again. 

4. I'm not sure this would actually work. Going across state lines is very easy - if you open up, say, Indiana again because their cases are low, cases can trickle from Illinois over the border and the state will have to go back under lockdown. My own governor is refusing a stay at home order, so we are continuing to bear the price and will likely have sustained economic damage because we haven't done anything more than just encourage people to stay at home. 

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Just now, Hestia11 said:

What happens when they have to back track if the several weeks doesn't work and our cases continue to rise?

If the lock-downs don't work after several weeks, then ... they're just not going to work. More time in lock-down won't fix that. Either way, you have to get your economy going again after several weeks.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Hestia11 said:

I'm not sure this would actually work. Going across state lines is very easy - if you open up, say, Indiana again because their cases are low, cases can trickle from Illinois over the border and the state will have to go back under lockdown.

It's tough. You would probably want much more fine-grained than state-based. But it's not really that hard to shut down travel between regions. There are typically just a few roads in a given region that have to be controlled. If there is heavy police presence, people quickly get the message and don't try to skip to another region.

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2 hours ago, admin_270 said:

I'm actually not writing these posts to you, @Actinguy . Not sure why you keep responding, though, if you think it doesn't matter.

You're writing to him and all of us, and I'd wager that 8 out of 10 of us (or more) side more with @Actinguy than you on this particular issue. I'm trying to stay out of this circular argument as much as possible, but your posts are coming off as quasi-antagonistic. I also think we're all tired of talking about and hearing news about the Coronavirus as well. It might be nice to get some posts from you that aren't on this topic. 

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9 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I also think we're all tired of talking about and hearing news about the Coronavirus as well.

Then don't read the threads. No one is forced to read or respond to them.

I'm working my ideas out here, as this is the biggest global political event of the last year.

I welcome push-back on ideas, although of course I don't like the kind of condescending feedback @Actinguy has given on several occasions re this.

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6 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

I welcome push-back on ideas, although of course I don't like the kind of condescending feedback @Actinguy has given on several occasions re this.

It is true that I become condescending when I am frustrated.  I am frustrated by your laissez-faire mockery of a global pandemic every day.  It is frustrating.

21 minutes ago, vcczar said:

You're writing to him and all of us, and I'd wager that 8 out of 10 of us (or more) side more with @Actinguy than you on this particular issue. 

I can only pray that this is true.

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44 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

If the lock-downs don't work after several weeks, then ... they're just not going to work. More time in lock-down won't fix that. Either way, you have to get your economy going again after several weeks.

 

 

It’s not the lockdowns - it’s the states that refuse to lock down in the first place. 

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