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We need immediate, temporary UBI and freezing of all institutional loan payments and rents

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We need immediate, temporary UBI of $2,000 per adult per month (can be taxed back for people above a certain threshold) and freezing of all institutional loan payments and rents. Governments are significantly under-estimating the scope of the damage generated by their own actions, and these sorts of measures will make it much more likely for the economy to be able to 'pause'.

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42 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

We need immediate, temporary UBI of $2,000 per adult per month (can be taxed back for people above a certain threshold) and freezing of all institutional loan payments and rents. Governments are significantly under-estimating the scope of the damage generated by their own actions, and these sorts of measures will make it much more likely for the economy to be able to 'pause'.

As much as I despise such programs, you are probably right.  The drastic measures will have a dramatic effect on consumers and small businesses.  Though freezing rents does put land lords in a tight situation themselves as they rely on that for repairs, taxes, and mortgages (though that would be temporarily frozen).

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16 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

As much as I despise such programs, you are probably right.  The drastic measures will have a dramatic effect on consumers and small businesses.  Though freezing rents does put land lords in a tight situation themselves as they rely on that for repairs, taxes, and mortgages (though that would be temporarily frozen).

I'm afraid that Libertarian line really bugs me - especially in instances like this - because a Government that only effective exists to punish citizens who commit violent against each other, adjudicate a limited list of civil torts, protect the nation from invading armies, terrorists, and smugglers from outside, and print money, and leave all else to "private interests," (which often - not always, but often - come under the control of among the most exploitative, predatory, vulture-like, heartless, solely-greed-driven, soulless, and sociopathic individuals, ESPECIALLY with lack of regulations and other factors reigning in their worst excesses) is not a Government WORTHY of being called a "Government." It's more a "clearing house and adjudication body for corporate interests to be the REAL powers of Governance," like that sub-genre of dystopian science-fiction that was mostly contained in the '80's where the dystopian form of government in question was Undisguised Corporate Dictatorship.

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2 hours ago, admin_270 said:

We need immediate, temporary UBI of $2,000 per adult per month (can be taxed back for people above a certain threshold) and freezing of all institutional loan payments and rents. Governments are significantly under-estimating the scope of the damage generated by their own actions, and these sorts of measures will make it much more likely for the economy to be able to 'pause'.

I agree with all of this. I'd add, that if this comes to a recession, that eliminating student debt and other debt owed to the government by individuals would help create some spending power. This might help speed up the process of recovery. In theory, student debt elimination should come with a family income-based payment plan for tuition, so that student loans can be eliminated complete, since they'd theoretically be unnecessary. That would prevent having to pass a student debt elimination plan in the future. 

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12 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I agree with all of this. I'd add, that if this comes to a recession, that eliminating student debt and other debt owed to the government by individuals would help create some spending power. This might help speed up the process of recovery. In theory, student debt elimination should come with a family income-based payment plan for tuition, so that student loans can be eliminated complete, since they'd theoretically be unnecessary. That would prevent having to pass a student debt elimination plan in the future. 

Judeo-Christian law (supposedly one of the biggest legal foundations of the Western First Word, the Hispanosphere, Luosphere, most modern African Countries south of the Green Belt, the Philippines, East Timor, and certainly Israel), as written as a mandatory command by Providence, in the Bible, to grant a Jubilee of all debts owed by everyone to everyone every 25 years. But that's never one of the Biblical commands modern Judeo-Christian right-wing, conservative political and other types of leaders want to revive and bring back into national law codes - they only seem to want more, and harder, punitive laws from the Bible restored instead. It is truly unfortunate - and quite disgusting, frankly.

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2 hours ago, Patine said:

they only seem to want more, and harder, punitive laws from the Bible restored instead.

Let me ask you, do you want these laws restored yourself? The harsh, punitive laws?

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38 minutes ago, Reagan04 said:

Let me ask you, do you want these laws restored yourself? The harsh, punitive laws?

In truth, the harsh, punitive laws in the Old Testament were "not upended, but fulfilled," and, through the Blood and Sacrifice of Christ, while still extant, except for a few formally lifted entirely (like kosher dietary law and blood ritual, bloody punishment, bloodshed, and other "bloody" ones), they are no longer for Caesar or the Church to judge or punish, but for the Perfect Judgement of the Father on Judgement Day through the Path to Salvation. The Jubilee was never abolished or altered in scripture.

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17 hours ago, vcczar said:

if this comes to a recession

*If*? 1 million+ new unemployment claims in Canda *last week*. The unemployment system here is completely overwhelmed. New U.S. numbers are 3 million+ (you guys are a bit behind us in lock-down actions by governments), and that is going to go much, much higher if this keeps going.

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9 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

*If*? 1 million+ new unemployment claims in Canda *last week*. The unemployment system here is completely overwhelmed. New U.S. numbers are 3 million+ (you guys are a bit behind us in lock-down actions by governments), and that is going to go much, much higher if this keeps going.

What would be interesting is to know the following:

  • How many claims per capita is that vs. the US?
  • How many unemployment personnel are there in Canada to deal with such claims compared to the US per capita?
  • How much funding for unemployment claims are there in the Canada vs. US per capita?
  • What is the difference between how much one gets there and for how long as compared to the US?
  • What safety nets other than unemployment checks do the Canadians have that the US unemployed do not have and vice-versa (affordable and accessible healthcare, for instance)?
  • How much disposable cash can these two countries add to handle unemployment per capita. 

I tend to not like arguments build around "The US is going to be in a worse position if they do so and so because they have a larger population" when it doesn't include, "The US also tends to have more money and resources, and in theory, more personnel, etc., etc., etc." As such, the best way to compare and contrast two countries of different size and/or population is to use a per capita method and even that isn't going to tell the whole story. 

In regards to disposable cash, I mean also....how much money can the US create or borrow to handle the situation. In this case, it seems almost unlimited. Somalia, for instance, could throw unlimited cash at something, the US can. Of course it isn't fiscally sound at all, but what person on earth thinks it is even conceivable that we can ever pay our national debts? The value of money, since it isn't really tied to anything, can be pretty much be whatever country controls most of the banks, trade, sea routes, and has the most influence wants it to be.

Tangent alert: 

This is another reason why I predict in 100 years that there will be some sort of currency/economic revolution that might do away with money as we see it. I'm not sure what it will entail, but it could be something similar to Star Trek: The Next Generation Federation World (which has eradicated poverty by apparently guaranteeing free supply of basics or something) mixed with something akin to a UBI for people to spend on non-basics. Naturally, the guaranteeing of free supply is tied to the production and delivering of basics being so cheap (transporters or something akin to a 3D printer) making them on demand. Imagine at home ventilators, medication, medical tests, vitamins, made at the touch of a button. Obviously, I'm talking 100 years from now...2120.   I think the current ideas of currency, gold, economy is phasing out, a process that started with the first banks and economists that theorized and then issued fiat currency. This futuristic non-economy economy, I assume, would be pretty much safe from depressions and recessions, since it isn't tied to anything. It also allows businesses and etc. to hire only competent workers since the potentially lazy or incompetent workers won't be forced to work. They can use their time either being lazy or working on things aligned to their natural competencies. Robots/AI would take over a lot of the mind-numbing work, leaving mostly work that requires workers that are rarely lazy and rarely incompetent. Imagine the productivity here. 

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2 minutes ago, vcczar said:

tend to not like arguments build around "The US is going to be in a worse position if they do so and so because they have a larger population" when it doesn't include, "The US also tends to have more money and resources, and in theory, more personnel, etc., etc., etc."

Oh, absolutely. Canada is 1/10th the U.S.'s pop, so our numbers are much worse. Also fewer manufacturing capabilities, and so on. This would be equivalent to 10 million new unemployment claims in a week in the U.S. It's really bad here, but we started lock-downs and shut-downs earlier. Keep on the same path, I see no reason to not expect similar. There are going to be many more unemployment claims in Canada if we keep going this direction.

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11 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Oh, absolutely. Canada is 1/10th the U.S.'s pop, so our numbers are much worse. Also fewer manufacturing capabilities, and so on. This would be equivalent to 10 million new unemployment claims in a week in the U.S. It's really bad here, but we started lock-downs and shut-downs earlier. Keep on the same path, I see no reason to not expect similar. There are going to be many more unemployment claims in Canada if we keep going this direction.

Ok, so the next question would be this: 

How do experts (economic and medical) think the following numbers will compare/contrast with one another if the quarantining ends in two weeks vs ends at June 1st?:

Coronavirus positive cases.

Coronavirus-related permanent disabilities (I'm sure some that survive the comas will return less than who they were before).

Coronavirus-related medical bills (not as much of an issue in Canada as it is in the US)

Coronavirus-related deaths.

Coronavirus-related medical supplies, hospital space, personnel, etc. 

Unemployed workers (excluding those temporarily laid off, who will get their jobs back).

GDP drop

Revenue loss

National production

Potential-length of economy recovery to pre-coronavirus levels

and other similar numbers. 

In theory the coronavirus-related stuff will spike if we get out of quarantine too early, while the bottom stuff will be worse if we stay in quarantine at all, and especially for a lengthy period. 

Another question is this: Is it worth going through a recession from an extended quarantine that may require 4 years to recover if it is estimated to save 500,000 lives, predominately but not restricted to the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions such as high blood pressure, diabetes, or a temporary common cold.

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@vcczar

Complicated, isn't it?

The quicker we get a more accurate picture of hospitalization and mortality rates, the better we can get better guesses for all this. It's starting to look like mortality rates are far lower than some initially feared - much lower than WHO's 3.5%, perhaps significantly lower than 1%. That's a big piece of the puzzle.

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20 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

@vcczar

Complicated, isn't it?

The quicker we get a more accurate picture of hospitalization and mortality rates, the better we can get better guesses for all this. It's starting to look like mortality rates are far lower than some initially feared - much lower than WHO's 3.5%, perhaps significantly lower than 1%. That's a big piece of the puzzle.

Where are you getting this number? I saw 4% for about a week or so ago. 

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Which number? < 1%? 

Look here

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

and take a look at Canada's numbers. 37/3,897 = < 1%. There are 2 big questions with these. First is lag time, second is how many people have it but haven't been tested. Both of these are important, but consider the 2nd. There is no widespread testing here. People who have symptoms compatible with COVID-19 but aren't feeling that bad, are told to isolate and aren't tested. There is almost certainly a large number of people who have the virus but won't be tested.

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I believe this is part of why Ferguson is now predicting 20k in U.K. instead of 2.2 million - more people already infected than originally estimated.

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51 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Which number? < 1%? 

Look here

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

and take a look at Canada's numbers. 37/3,897 = < 1%. There are 2 big questions with these. First is lag time, second is how many people have it but haven't been tested. Both of these are important, but consider the 2nd. There is no widespread testing here. People who have symptoms compatible with COVID-19 but aren't feeling that bad, are told to isolate and aren't tested. There is almost certainly a large number of people who have the virus but won't be tested.

They're not testing the dead.  If someone dies of suspected COVID-19, they're not bothering to waste a test on them.

This greatly impacts the totals.

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@admin_270 @Actinguy @vcczar @jvikings1 I'm hoping (but will PROBABLY be disappointed) that this unprecedented aspect of things shows some of the glaring failures and faults of the global economic paradigm for the last century - which has basically been Free-Market Capitalism vs. Communism with numerous hybrid and middle-ground paradigms in-between, and marginalizing, ridiculing, discrediting, and silencing all "Third Way" economic models meant to transcend or move beyond or outside this strict continuum. Maybe, this form of economic crisis, will lead to some SERIOUS look at how economics has been done (and the many failures and crises that were just overlooked or viewed as "acceptable speedbumps"), and the actual situation, technology, capabilities, and views of things that have already advanced beyond, de facto, beyond the limits of that economic continuum, and some new ideas on economic development to great new ground, and bring true betterment to far greater percentages of the world population than ever before!

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