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vcczar

Political Realignment

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20 minutes ago, vcczar said:

There are, of course, just as there are with Republicans, hybrids between these groups, but I wouldn't say they're a distinctive group in themselves

Would you consider blacks to be a hybrid group within the Democratic party, then? Or do you think they largely fit in one or other of the factions?

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4 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Would you consider blacks to be a hybrid group within the Democratic party, then? Or do you think they largely fit in one or other of the factions?

So far, polling suggests they are strongly united behind Biden.

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18 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Would you consider blacks to be a hybrid group within the Democratic party, then? Or do you think they largely fit in one or other of the factions?

 

13 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

So far, polling suggests they are strongly united behind Biden.

Yeah, they're mostly in the establishment. 

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41 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

@vcczar

In terms of %s of Democratic primary voters, what do you think the break down is with the 3 factions?

Group 1 is probably like 60%. Group 2 if probably like 30%. Group 3 is probably 10%. That said, I don't think these groups are monolithic with 100% commitment to these groups. They'll be susceptible to inspirations and prejudices. I'm sure some of that 60% voted for Sanders over Clinton, for instance. I'm sure some of that 10% also voted for Sanders over Clinton. I'm sure some of that 60% will pick Warren over Biden. 

One group we are leaving out, since we're focusing on parties, are the demographics for Independent Voters, which are going to be much more ideologically varied than those within the parties. 

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@admin_270 @vcczar

I felt inspired enough by this conversation to do some googling.  Found lots of articles trying to break Democrats down into any of 2-6 categories.  But I like this one the best, which names four:

https://harvardpolitics.com/united-states/the-four-democratic-parties/

Of the list, I found myself agreeing most with the Coastal Technocrats.

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39 minutes ago, vcczar said:

One group we are leaving out, since we're focusing on parties, are the demographics for Independent Voters, which are going to be much more ideologically varied than those within the parties.

Right.

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7 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

But I like this one the best, which names four:

https://harvardpolitics.com/united-states/the-four-democratic-parties/

Of the list, I found myself agreeing most with the Coastal Technocrats.

Let me see ... If we were to try to map those 4 to VCCzar's 3,

Berniecrats -> Progressives and Moderate Democrats

Rustbelt Populists -> Moderate Democrats?

Culture Warriors -> Progressives

Coastal Technocrats -> Liberal Establishment?

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Just now, admin_270 said:

Let me see ... If we were to try to map those 4 to VCCzar's 3,

Berniecrats -> Progressives and Moderate Democrats

Rustbelt Populists -> Moderate Democrats?

Culture Warriors -> Progressives

Coastal Technocrats -> Liberal Establishment?

I’d think that a Berniecrat, having Bernie right in the name, would be the antithesis of a moderate democrat.

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5 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

I’d think that a Berniecrat, having Bernie right in the name, would be the antithesis of a moderate democrat.

Ya, the populist-elitist divide makes it tricky when dealing with whether someone's a moderate. We saw this recently in Canada. The People's Party's position on immigration was to reduce it significantly, which according to polling is a broadly supported view. Yet it was characterized as radical or extreme.

Are moderate democrats populists? VCCzar defines it as being possibly 'quasi-populist'.

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13 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Let me see ... If we were to try to map those 4 to VCCzar's 3,

Berniecrats -> Progressives and Moderate Democrats

Rustbelt Populists -> Moderate Democrats?

Culture Warriors -> Progressives

Coastal Technocrats -> Liberal Establishment?

I’d split the culture warriors into Libs and Progs, rather than just to progs. 

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43 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Ya, the populist-elitist divide makes it tricky when dealing with whether someone's a moderate. We saw this recently in Canada. The People's Party's position on immigration was to reduce it significantly, which according to polling is a broadly supported view. Yet it was characterized as radical or extreme.

Are moderate democrats populists? VCCzar defines it as being possibly 'quasi-populist'.

I think I can see that "Populist" is going to be the next political buzzword overused far out of the appropriate bounds of it's meaning and definition and spammed into effectiveness meaninglessness, like Communism, Socialism, Fascism, Nazism, Social Justice, Political Correctness, Law and Order, Anti-Semitic/Racist/Homophobic/<insert other broad-based institutional prejudice>, Colonialist, National Security/Defense, Personal Liberty, Pro-Choice/Pro-Life, Private Business Solutions/Deregulation, and Christian and Islamic (as those two religious labels apply to politics, at least).

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40 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

 

Are moderate democrats populists? VCCzar defines it as being possibly 'quasi-populist'.

Populist, according to dictionary.com  at least, means "a person, especially a politician, who strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups."

I think of the moderates as being those established "elite" groups.

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4 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

I think of the moderates as being those established "elite" groups.

The examples VCCzar gives of moderate Democrats are Manchin and Sinema. I would call them both relatively populist.

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14 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

The examples VCCzar gives of moderate Democrats are Manchin and Sinema. I would call them both relatively populist.

This may be my own bias showing, but I think of populism in a negative connotation.  Snake oil salesmen, promising things that aren’t true to people who, through no fault of their own, don’t know better.

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1 hour ago, admin_270 said:

Ya, the populist-elitist divide makes it tricky when dealing with whether someone's a moderate. We saw this recently in Canada. The People's Party's position on immigration was to reduce it significantly, which according to polling is a broadly supported view. Yet it was characterized as radical or extreme.

Are moderate democrats populists? VCCzar defines it as being possibly 'quasi-populist'.

That is an interesting question, and in my eyes it depends on what are their core values(since not every Democrat fits neatly into one quadrant). Take Steve Bullock, I feel he is right in between Rust Belt/Berniecrat given Bullock's fondness for unions(makes him in the rust belt camp), but also advocated for increasing the minimum wage. 

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15 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

This may be my own bias showing, but I think of populism in a negative connotation.  Snake oil salesmen, promising things that aren’t true to people who, through no fault of their own, don’t know better.

I think of populism rather neutrally, but it often embodies both the best and worst of our political desires. I view establishment maybe a little negatively because it claims authority and power, and while it does often safeguard us from the worst of populism, it seemed to equally fend off the best of populism. This isn’t just a current issue, but had been for our entire history. Maybe a better way to describe this would be, instead of best and worst, is positive populism and negative populism, with the former generally being best. Positive populism would be an impulse to use or remove government for the common good and/or in contradiction to universal and natural evils, such as murder, intolerance, poverty, pestilence—all things about any culture would consider bad. Negative populism is fueled by negative emotions and the use of removal of government to achieve murder, intolerance, keep a group in poverty, keep a group unequal etc. Establishment can do all this too, but a populist politician caters to these more forcefully when it is achieving a high tide in whatever era in American history that were in. Establishment reluctantly accepts these once all other avenues of maintaining power disappear (think Lindsey Graham). 

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Populism is inherently bad, as is the elitism it decries.  Both employ an "in-group" mentality that results in antagonism and harm to those on the outside.  The United States was formed in the spirit of pluralism, "All men are created equal", and the best public officials have always worked towards those ends.

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16 minutes ago, pilight said:

Populism is inherently bad, as is the elitism it decries.  Both employ an "in-group" mentality that results in antagonism and harm to those on the outside.  The United States was formed in the spirit of pluralism, "All men are created equal", and the best public officials have always worked towards those ends.

A nation that was built on a slave economy to a significant margin, that seized land through trickery, lies, and intimidation from Indigenous people and then treated them in an inhuman way, and had a very xenophobic initial view of LEGAL immigrants who weren't from certain, specific European countries is hardly a nation with an "all men are created equal," doctrine from it's very foundations. But, that being said, elitism is truly a cancer to ANY society as vehicle for power.

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54 minutes ago, Patine said:

A nation that was built on a slave economy to a significant margin, that seized land through trickery, lies, and intimidation from Indigenous people and then treated them in an inhuman way, and had a very xenophobic initial view of LEGAL immigrants who weren't from certain, specific European countries is hardly a nation with an "all men are created equal," doctrine from it's very foundations. But, that being said, elitism is truly a cancer to ANY society as vehicle for power.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

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3 minutes ago, pilight said:

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

I am not a proponent or advocate of elitism or institutional inequality. Please tell me how I am thus hypocritical in this way?

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

I am not a proponent or advocate of elitism or institutional inequality. Please tell me how I am thus hypocritical in this way?

When you come from a country that stole children from indigenous families up through the late 1980's, you shouldn't be lecturing other countries about how to handle their native population

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1 minute ago, pilight said:

When you come from a country that stole children from indigenous families up through the late 1980's, you shouldn't be lecturing other countries about how to handle their native population

I didn't once say my country was founded on that principle either. In fact, no nation on Earth really and honestly was at their foundation, and I didn't ever claim as much. I was merely calling out a pompous boast, probably said without thinking, from a propaganda script. I made no other claims. But it seems a lot of people like to put words in my mouth I've never said, and use them as false ammunition to attack me for allegedly claiming, saying, and believing things I never have.

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5 hours ago, pilight said:

True, Canada lacks the aspirations of the US

The U.S. started with such inspirations on paper, but fell short of them right from the start, and it's actual government was never a force to initiate improvements in these areas in and of itself - all improvements were because of Presidents and other political leaders otherwise happy with the system capitulating to mass demand against their initial plans or desires, or taking advantage of such movements opportunistically for their own promotion and advancements. But, although not built into the Canadian Constitution or founding principles, a fair number (not all, but a number) of Canadian Prime Ministers and their Governments starting with Pearson (arguably St. Laurent, but his contributions in those ways were much more minimal) made a lot of improvements to Canadian equality, rights, and living standards that no founding mandate or ideal obliged them to. So, which is a nobler thing - high, vaunted ideals never truly fulfilled and for a long time of the nation's history empty, vapid words, or only done so grudgingly and because popular demand by groups involved and their allies become impossible to ignore or suppress or for a President's political advantage a - or ACTUALIZING such ideals out of a desire for national improvement even though no national principle demands they do so, de jure.

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