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vcczar

American Imperialism Poll

American Imperialism Poll  

20 members have voted

  1. 1. Which Parts of American Imperialism do you support?

    • The various Indian Wars that expanded the county beyond the original 13 colonies.
    • The Louisiana Purchase
    • The Mexican War
    • The Gadsden Purchase
    • Spanish-American War
    • Philippine War
    • The Banana Wars (intervention and/or occupation of Cuba, Haiti, Panama, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, and the Dominican Republican)
    • Intervention in Italian and French just after WWII to prevent Communists from winning elections.
    • Korean War (Imperial Internationalism)
    • Vietnam War (Imperial Internationalism)
    • Use of the CIA and other covert operations to incur a coup d'etat in other countries, generally to topple regimes critical of the US)
    • Invasion and occupation of Iraq, despite no evidence of WMD or a connection to Osama bin Laden
    • Other (List in the comments)
    • I don't support any of these.


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11 minutes ago, ThePotatoWalrus said:

Americans only vote pls

Well, you've voted on opinion polls about the UK, EU, Russia, and other countries besides in the past. And, I've already given my scathing opinion on arrogant and self-righteous nationalism and parochialism - regardless of nation in question - as is. So even though you said "pls," which is not a word, I say "suck it." No nation exists in a void, and all may be judged externally - because peer and internal review only are the height of stupidity. Besides, I bet you wouldn't have said a word if @Conservative Elector 2, @victorraiders, or @LegolasRedbard were the ones voting. You've just made a fool of yourself again!

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I feel like this is the first poll that @Patine eagerly voted in. 

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1 minute ago, vcczar said:

I feel like this is the first poll that @Patine eagerly voted in. 

It was so easy. If you'd like to hear how I would have ideally handled Westward expansion for the U.S. (and ideally, Canada, too), meet me on Steam sometime tomorrow. I think my fingers will fall off soon tonight, otherwise.

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4 minutes ago, Patine said:

Well, you've voted on opinion polls about the UK, EU, Russia, and other countries besides in the past. And, I've already given my scathing opinion on arrogant and self-righteous nationalism and parochialism - regardless of nation in question - as is. So even though you said "pls," which is not a word, I say "suck it." No nation exists in a void, and all may be judged externally - because peer and internal review only are the height of stupidity. Besides, I bet you wouldn't have said a word if @Conservative Elector 2, @victorraiders, or @LegolasRedbard were the ones voting. You've just made a fool of yourself again!

Yet I think you've made a fool of yourself for taking his bait, once again. 

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Just now, SilentLiberty said:

Yet I think you've made a fool of yourself for taking his bait, once again. 

At this point, I'm just venting, and I'm well aware that's exactly what I'm doing. I've stopped pretending it'll have an impact. I can vent, he can get his twisted jollies, and it'll be like a gallows humour bad comedy routine. Win/win, in a Freudian-sort of way. And maybe - just maybe - I'll get something through his concrete inadvertently.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

At this point, I'm just venting, and I'm well aware that's exactly what I'm doing. I've stopped pretending it'll have an impact. I can vent, he can get his twisted jollies, and it'll be like a gallows humour bad comedy routine. Win/win, in a Freudian-sort of way. And maybe - just maybe - I'll get something through his concrete inadvertently.

Well maybe you will.

Change is the law of life. 

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32 minutes ago, Patine said:

which is not a word, I say "suck it."

"I say suck it good sir!"

Absolutely iconic

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Would you consider any expansion of the U.S. to be an example of imperialism, such as the Alaska Purchase or the annexation of Hawaii?

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Would you consider the occupation of Germany and stationing of military forces there (to this day) an example of imperialism (or Japan)?

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13 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Would you consider any expansion of the U.S. to be an example of imperialism, such as the Alaska Purchase or the annexation of Hawaii?

The annexation of Hawaii was an underhanded, dirty pool affair with absolutely no legal backing to it to this day. It is, in all sense of legality, an illegitimately-administered, covertly, or "soft" military occupied, suppressed constitutional monarchy that was never legally terminated.

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I see that four posters support the essentially carte blanche deployment by the U.S. Government of one of the biggest and worst terrorist organizations in the post-WW2 era - by the very definition of a "terrorist organization" issued by the U.S. Department of State, no less - the Central Intelligence Agency, including @Reagan04, who betrays with such a choice yet a greater moral bankruptcy while hypocritically claiming a "moral high ground," and condemning my own morals for being concerned with the common, disadvantaged, downtrodden people as a priority over wealth and privilege.

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8 hours ago, admin_270 said:

Would you consider any expansion of the U.S. to be an example of imperialism, such as the Alaska Purchase or the annexation of Hawaii?

 

8 hours ago, admin_270 said:

Would you consider the occupation of Germany and stationing of military forces there (to this day) an example of imperialism (or Japan)?

Yeah. I should have included these. I probably should have waited to post this. I was 70% through it but then I was rushed to take care of some domestic duties.  I’d include the Panama Canal part of that too. We also have troops stationed in Qatar etc. Control of the oceans could also count. 

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7 hours ago, Patine said:

I see that four posters support the essentially carte blanche deployment by the U.S. Government of one of the biggest and worst terrorist organizations in the post-WW2 era - by the very definition of a "terrorist organization" issued by the U.S. Department of State, no less - the Central Intelligence Agency, including @Reagan04, who betrays with such a choice yet a greater moral bankruptcy while hypocritically claiming a "moral high ground," and condemning my own morals for being concerned with the common, disadvantaged, downtrodden people as a priority over wealth and privilege.

Image result for strawman

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I think @Patine should start a podcast or radio show, but I think @ThePotatoWalrus would keep calling in pretending to be different people. 

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1 hour ago, Reagan04 said:

Image result for strawman

I still maintain my previously stated opinion, by experience, on the meaning and usage of the "strawman" which I made very clear to you. And I couldn't help but notice you were unwilling and unable to defend or rectify the obvious dichotonomy your supposed moral high ground and vaunted Christian ethic with supporting a group like the CIA. Of course, @ThePotatoWalrus giving such support is no surprise at all - he doesn't even pretend to have values, morals, or really even intelligence.

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6 minutes ago, Patine said:

I still maintain my previously stated opinion, by experience, on the meaning and usage of the "strawman" which I made very clear to you. And I couldn't help but notice you were unwilling and unable to defend or rectify the obvious dichotonomy your supposed moral high ground and vaunted Christian ethic with supporting a group like the CIA. Of course, @ThePotatoWalrus giving such support is no surprise at all - he doesn't even pretend to have values, morals, or really even intelligence.

Look, I refuse to engage you if you're going to tell me that I don't care for the poor or downtrodden and that my faith values are violated by my other values. Patine, you're a smart guy but often times I think you get lost in your own concept of personal righteousness. People can disagree with you and still be moral my friend. You are far too quick to throw around these nasty allegations, and yes, strawmen tactics, and I take that to heart.

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13 minutes ago, Reagan04 said:

Look, I refuse to engage you if you're going to tell me that I don't care for the poor or downtrodden and that my faith values are violated by my other values. Patine, you're a smart guy but often times I think you get lost in your own concept of personal righteousness. People can disagree with you and still be moral my friend. You are far too quick to throw around these nasty allegations, and yes, strawmen tactics, and I take that to heart.

Let me ask it in these terms. How can you fully support a band of murderers, terrorists, organized criminals, political saboteurs, and violators of freedom and liberty, abroad, and DOMESTICALLY, whose activities are cloaked in utter secrecy and lack of accountability and transparency, protected from all legal consequences, and on the U.S. taxpayer's dime, and still feel moral and good about yourself?

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32 minutes ago, Patine said:

Let me ask it in these terms. How can you fully support a band of murderers, terrorists, organized criminals, political saboteurs, and violators of freedom and liberty, abroad, and DOMESTICALLY, whose activities are cloaked in utter secrecy and lack of accountability and transparency, protected from all legal consequences, and on the U.S. taxpayer's dime, and still feel moral and good about yourself?

you just love to engage in these strawmen. I don't view the world as nearly as black and white as you do nor am I nearly as pessimistic about American foreign policy goals. I believe America can be a force for good and I want to uplift the oppressed peoples of both America and the world. You have preconceived notions about my views on how to do that and therefore only ascribe them ill motives. It's a cycle of destruction and does not help your appearance of having intelligence or even-handedness. It just comes off as radically unhinged.

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56 minutes ago, Reagan04 said:

I believe America can be a force for good and I want to uplift the oppressed peoples of both America and the world.

And how does supporting the CIA, which is a vile stain upon any good the U.S. does, and one of the greatest forces of evil, in and of itself, since the end of WW2, and has actively worked to oppress the drag down peoples across the world, support this? Wouldn't this goal be far better served if the U.S. came clean about this wickedness, and abolished this vile tool, never to be used again, and actually went about pursuing this goal in good faith? And I'd like to see an answer that does attack me, as the questioner, but actually does answers the question.

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1 hour ago, Reagan04 said:

I believe America can be a force for good and I want to uplift the oppressed peoples of both America and the world.

I guess one of the things that's a little odd about Republicans or Conservatives that believe in this states is that they often see no problem in using the federal government, including massive spending, in being a force for good and uplifting oppressed people in other countries, but they seem to be often opposed to using the federal government, including massive spending, if equal force is used for people domestically. If it had to be a choice for one or the other it seems like the focus to "forcing good and uplifting people" via the Federal government should be at the citizens that pay the taxes to the Federal Government. 

46 minutes ago, Patine said:

And how does supporting the CIA, which is a vile stain upon any good the U.S. does, and one of the greatest forces of evil, in and of itself, since the end of WW2, and has actively worked to oppress the drag down peoples across the world, support this? Wouldn't this goal be far better served if the U.S. came clean about this wickedness, and abolished this vile tool, never to be used again, and actually went about pursuing this goal in good faith? And I'd like to see an answer that does attack me, as the questioner, but actually does answers the question.

I do think the CIA should be more transparent and open about what it has done; however, I think it would be dangerous to abolish the CIA since it does things other than trying to overthrow governments it doesn't like. That's the same argument that conservatives make about Planned Parenthood. They act as if they think its an abortion only program when that's just a small fraction of what it does. The CIA likewise operates and detects foreign spies, and it gathers and analyzes security information and many other non-harmful things. I think the better way to make your case is to call for reform. Calling for reform is reasonable and less likely to backfire. If you abolished the CIA as president, I'm pretty sure your good intentions would backfire on the country as people like Putin, and Kim Jong Un, etc. will take advantage of the security vacuum. 

I'd definitely favor reform, including making it illegal for a US president to unilaterally overthrow a government without some sort of UN-like coalition to overthrow a Hitler-like genocidal leader. Likewise, as I oppose going to war in 95% of cases, I wouldn't call for the military to be abolished. I would reform the policy with how it is used. 

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11 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I guess one of the things that's a little odd about Republicans or Conservatives that believe in this states is that they often see no problem in using the federal government, including massive spending, in being a force for good and uplifting oppressed people in other countries, but they seem to be often opposed to using the federal government, including massive spending, if equal force is used for people domestically. If it had to be a choice for one or the other it seems like the focus to "forcing good and uplifting people" via the Federal government should be at the citizens that pay the taxes to the Federal Government. 

I do think the CIA should be more transparent and open about what it has done; however, I think it would be dangerous to abolish the CIA since it does things other than trying to overthrow governments it doesn't like. That's the same argument that conservatives make about Planned Parenthood. They act as if they think its an abortion only program when that's just a small fraction of what it does. The CIA likewise operates and detects foreign spies, and it gathers and analyzes security information and many other non-harmful things. I think the better way to make your case is to call for reform. Calling for reform is reasonable and less likely to backfire. If you abolished the CIA as president, I'm pretty sure your good intentions would backfire on the country as people like Putin, and Kim Jong Un, etc. will take advantage of the security vacuum. 

I'd definitely favor reform, including making it illegal for a US president to unilaterally overthrow a government without some sort of UN-like coalition to overthrow a Hitler-like genocidal leader. Likewise, as I oppose going to war in 95% of cases, I wouldn't call for the military to be abolished. I would reform the policy with how it is used. 

Then cut the CIA to purely intelligence gathering (non-violently and non-criminally, where possible) and detecting enemy (and REAL threat, not McCarthyist phantoms) with no operational ability to make coups, assassinations, illegal surveillance on U.S. or allied citizens, "disappearances of inconvenient people," smuggling arms to foreign nations or militias, terrorist-style activities, and blatant political sabotage, much more transparency and all expenditures up for taxpayer scrutiny, and CIA agents who go "rogue" and violate these principals actually tried and punished, with the book thrown at them, and if they abroad, their name, aliases, contacts, havens, etc. given out to all friendly and neutral law-enforcement and them declared a fugitive. I also don't support ABOLISHING the U.S. military - just making it, like Ron Paul (I'm surprised how many times I bring up his name in agreement) said, and like Switzerland, a state-of-the-art and highly advanced, trained, and disciplined professional force designed for defensive (and maybe select international peacekeeping) duty on home ground, with no standing foreign bases or deployment.

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