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vcczar

Democratic Support by Ideology

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3 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Could be Gabbard

I also think Fmr. Gov. Deval Patrick would be a good choice for Biden, but I'm not sure if that would get my vote or not, that would depend on how Patrick runs.

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47 minutes ago, Herbert Hoover said:

Abrams and Gillum won't happen due to inexperience and generally not being strong political figures. 

Castro eliminated himself. 

Warren is too old. 

Harris is a very likely option. 

Buttigieg is a decent option as well, he'd by my realistic pick for Biden. 

 

 

44 minutes ago, SilentLiberty said:

I want Gabbard to be his VP pick. Since I know he has to go with someone opposite of him, I think she checks off a lot of boxes. 

 

If he surprises me and goes with someone more center to center-left that'd be great too. 

 

Unfortunately all the people you listed as options would not have me vote for Biden. Maybe Gillum but that's only because I don't know enough about him at this time. 

 

It is looking more like Warren might be the nominee anyway, and she is more likely to pick a VP I would be more keen on, but I also think her VP pick matters a lot less. 

Harris, Buttigieg, or Gabbard, with Biden's age and seeming health, would almost seem (to me, at least) like a set-up for a Machiavellian political thriller movie sequel meant to top the "Orange Monster" by being insidious instead of overt. I'm sorry - that's the feeling I get.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

 

Harris, Buttigieg, or Gabbard, with Biden's age and seeming health, would almost seem (to me, at least) like a set-up for a Machiavellian political thriller movie sequel meant to top the "Orange Monster" by being insidious instead of overt. I'm sorry - that's the feeling I get.

The points that you make that anger a lot of my fellow Americans on this forum are 100% precise. I really feel like you would enjoy watching Jimmy Dore. He's been accused of being on either side of the political spectrum because he criticizes the mainstream of both parties.

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7 minutes ago, Patine said:

 

Harris, Buttigieg, or Gabbard, with Biden's age and seeming health, would almost seem (to me, at least) like a set-up for a Machiavellian political thriller movie sequel meant to top the "Orange Monster" by being insidious instead of overt. I'm sorry - that's the feeling I get.

Sure, you know, I agree. Especially with Buttigieg. Harris has shown she is authoritarian so that's not really disputable. As for Gabbard, maybe. At least she might actually do what she says she will in regards to the military though.  

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24 minutes ago, SilentLiberty said:

Sure, you know, I agree. Especially with Buttigieg. Harris has shown she is authoritarian so that's not really disputable. As for Gabbard, maybe. At least she might actually do what she says she will in regards to the military though.  

I may have missed something somewhere, but do you have a particular disdain for Buttigieg? It was my understanding that he was one of the less controversial figures in the race outside of his record on race relations.

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17 minutes ago, Herbert Hoover said:

I may have missed something somewhere, but do you have a particular disdain for Buttigieg? It was my understanding that he was one of the less controversial figures in the race outside of his record on race relations.

I think he is Frank Underwood but more outwardly charming.

I don't like how he went after Pence when the two seemingly had nothing but respect for each other when they were Gov. and Mayor. 

He just gives me some generally bad and snakey vibes. However when I've said that before anywhere it's mostly met with "but Trump" and like yeah, but at least Trump is very much known to be a car salesman snake type, and apparently he isn't very good at it according to former administration members. 

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On 9/17/2019 at 10:51 PM, pilight said:

The only yardstick any candidate should use in choosing a running mate measures their ability to assume the duties of the president if the need arises.

McCain wasn't going to win no matter who he picked as VP

Trump was going to win no matter who he picked as VP

 

11 hours ago, vcczar said:

From what I remember, and I kept up with the race, that the only people that claimed McCain would win were Conservative hacks like Gingrich. It was as @pilight presents. It was an almost virtually guaranteed victory for Obama or Clinton, whoever got the nomination. Once, Obama got the nomination, it was almost as if he became the first African-American president that moment. I remember going into election night as relaxed, happy, and confident that Obama was going to win as if watching a movie that I had seen before and new how it ended. 

 

There was a period of three months between when McCain chose Palin and election night.

You are correct that by the time election night rolled around, the outcome was a forgone conclusion.  However, a large part of that was how insanely bad the rollout of Sarah Palin went.  Another piece was the collapse of the economy (the stock market crash was the same month McCain announced Palin), which helped Obama as well.

McCain had two factors against him -- he wasn't as "cool" as Obama, and his age.  Yes, he was behind in the polling -- but not horribly behind, and he was making an effective argument that Obama might be a rockstar...but do you really want some inexperienced rockstar running the country?  He should have doubled down on that argument and won the slow and steady race.

Instead, he chose Sarah Palin in a Hail Mary throw, trying to capture the "Cool" title and refocus the buzz around his own campaign.  Instead, both McCain and Palin were horribly unprepared for the pick, and with McCain's age already being a problem, the idea that Sarah Palin could very seriously end up running the country frightened off a ton of moderate independents -- myself included.

So Palin mattered a lot.

As for Trump being a foregone conclusion before he picked Pence...WHAT?  He barely won the election WITH Pence.  You think he pulls off the same results while ignoring the religious right?  Not a chance.

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9 hours ago, Herbert Hoover said:

Abrams and Gillum won't happen due to inexperience and generally not being strong political figures. 

Castro eliminated himself. 

Warren is too old. 

Harris is a very likely option. 

Buttigieg is a decent option as well, he'd by my realistic pick for Biden. 

 

Abrams and Gillum -- agree...I do think Abrams is in the running, though she shouldn't be.

Castro -- agree, for Biden.  I think he made a strong case for himself as anyone else's VP though, as he showed his ability to handle the VP job of being the top of the ticket's attack dog.

Warren - number-wise, sure.  But she seems entirely physically and mentally with it, unlike Biden and Sanders.

Harris - I'm not sure who this appeals to.  Sure, black voters in theory...but in reality, Biden does amazing with black voters on his own, and Harris doesn't come close to matching that.

Buttigieg -- this is who I'd recommend for Biden.  If he doesn't take Buttigieg, I'd say Sherrod Brown.  (Yes, that costs a Senate seat -- but the White House is more important right now.)

 

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9 hours ago, SilentLiberty said:

I want Gabbard to be his VP pick. Since I know he has to go with someone opposite of him, I think she checks off a lot of boxes. 

Biden was best friends with Obama.  He's going to want that same relationship with his own VP.  He won't find that in Gabbard.

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9 hours ago, SilentLiberty said:

I also think Fmr. Gov. Deval Patrick would be a good choice for Biden, but I'm not sure if that would get my vote or not, that would depend on how Patrick runs.

Patrick tied himself to Bain Capital -- the same company that got Romney dragged through the mud in 2012.  He permanently erased his chances with that move.

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8 hours ago, SilentLiberty said:

I think he is Frank Underwood but more outwardly charming.

I don't like how he went after Pence when the two seemingly had nothing but respect for each other when they were Gov. and Mayor. 

He just gives me some generally bad and snakey vibes. However when I've said that before anywhere it's mostly met with "but Trump" and like yeah, but at least Trump is very much known to be a car salesman snake type, and apparently he isn't very good at it according to former administration members. 

That's politics -- when you're the mayor, you find a way to work with the Governor or your city suffers despite any personal misgivings you may have about him on a personal level.

There's people I don't like at work.  I still have to find a way to work with them, because I am an adult and I have a job to do.

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3 hours ago, Actinguy said:

That's politics -- when you're the mayor, you find a way to work with the Governor or your city suffers despite any personal misgivings you may have about him on a personal level.

There's people I don't like at work.  I still have to find a way to work with them, because I am an adult and I have a job to do.

So, an official shows some glaring lacks of ethics, seems to have suspicious motives, and has compromising associations, but wants to move to the next level, and they may be more popular or efficient that certain others competing for the slot, so we give them the full green and ignore possible threats to their integrity - because "that's politics?" Thank-you there, Nichollo Machiavelli!

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2 hours ago, Patine said:

So, an official shows some glaring lacks of ethics, seems to have suspicious motives, and has compromising associations, but wants to move to the next level, and they may be more popular or efficient that certain others competing for the slot, so we give them the full green and ignore possible threats to their integrity - because "that's politics?" Thank-you there, Nichollo Machiavelli!

What on earth are you talking about this time?

What are his suspicious motives?  Trying to take care of the people of his city?  That’s his job!  Running for President?  Then I guess every single candidate of every single party has suspicious motives.

Who are his compromising associates?

Mike Pence?

He doesn’t like Mike Pence!  They’re just from the same state.

Honestly, this is the most ridiculous argument you’ve offered so far.

 

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17 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

What on earth are you talking about this time?

What are his suspicious motives?  Trying to take care of the people of his city?  That’s his job!  Running for President?  Then I guess every single candidate of every single party has suspicious motives.

Who are his compromising associates?

Mike Pence?

He doesn’t like Mike Pence!  They’re just from the same state.

Honestly, this is the most ridiculous argument you’ve offered so far.

 

Being from the same State doesn't mean they have to be so openly and obviously cooperative on some very contentious issues - such as several that could alienate African-American voters, which, because of Republican bungling of race-based policy and many of their members portrayal of racial issues since the deaths of iconic Democratic racist politicians like George Wallace and Robert Byrd or the crossing of the aisle of others, like Strom Thurmond (though he's dead now too) and David Duke, have been, in a great majority, a major Democratic constituent group. Ironically, due to her own heritage, Harris is in the same boat, but rather than a State Governor as such as a compromising associate, it's the illegal slave-rings that are privatized prisons, whose population is disproportionately African-American...

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

Being from the same State doesn't mean they have to be so openly and obviously cooperative on some very contentious issues - such as several that could alienate African-American voters, which, because of Republican bungling of race-based policy and many of their members portrayal of racial issues since the deaths of iconic Democratic racist politicians like George Wallace and Robert Byrd or the crossing of the aisle of others, like Strom Thurmond (though he's dead now too) and David Duke, have been, in a great majority, a major Democratic constituent group. Ironically, due to her own heritage, Harris is in the same boat, but rather than a State Governor as such as a compromising associate, it's the illegal slave-rings that are privatized prisons, whose population is disproportionately African-American...

So...still no actual complaints?  Just "Some very contentious issues."

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9 hours ago, Actinguy said:

 

As for Trump being a foregone conclusion before he picked Pence...WHAT?  He barely won the election WITH Pence.  You think he pulls off the same results while ignoring the religious right?  Not a chance.

He did ignore the religious right and continues to do so to this very day.

The religious right was going to vote for Trump as long as he was white & male and Clinton & Obama weren't.  

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25 minutes ago, pilight said:

He did ignore the religious right and continues to do so to this very day.

The religious right was going to vote for Trump as long as he was white & male and Clinton & Obama weren't.  

Eh...I mean, don't get me wrong -- he's obviously not a shining example of the religious right (at least, not in a positive way).  But choosing Pence was to address that.  If he chose, say, Chris Christie then I think they largely stay at home or find someone to write in, like the "Bernie or Bust" bros did.

As for whether he's continuing to ignore them, I'd disagree.  Again, he is not living his own life according to religious right values -- but I'd argue the Muslim ban and attacks on pro-choice laws and his choices for the Supreme Court have all given the religious right a lot to like.

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30 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Eh...I mean, don't get me wrong -- he's obviously not a shining example of the religious right (at least, not in a positive way).  But choosing Pence was to address that.  If he chose, say, Chris Christie then I think they largely stay at home or find someone to write in, like the "Bernie or Bust" bros did.

As for whether he's continuing to ignore them, I'd disagree.  Again, he is not living his own life according to religious right values -- but I'd argue the Muslim ban and attacks on pro-choice laws and his choices for the Supreme Court have all given the religious right a lot to like.

I will be honest and speak from personal experience, as someone that went into the primary as a #NeverTrumper, Mike Pence really soothed me a lot to think that Trump could be contained by the forces of traditional conservatism. Mike Pence had been a good Governor with a great record and it REALLY helped that he had endorsed Cruz right before the all-important Indiana primary, so yes, Pence mattered in gaining my support. 

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5 hours ago, Actinguy said:

Eh...I mean, don't get me wrong -- he's obviously not a shining example of the religious right (at least, not in a positive way).  But choosing Pence was to address that.  If he chose, say, Chris Christie then I think they largely stay at home or find someone to write in, like the "Bernie or Bust" bros did.

As for whether he's continuing to ignore them, I'd disagree.  Again, he is not living his own life according to religious right values -- but I'd argue the Muslim ban and attacks on pro-choice laws and his choices for the Supreme Court have all given the religious right a lot to like.

Well, since the MODERN POLITICAL "Religious Right" do not follow the "Ministry of Christ" in any case, and are often quite anathema to it, and don't really follow the proper tenets of any other religion of note, either, they're more an arbitrary, socially authoritarian, micromanaging, and petty social engineering faction with a harsh, mean-spirited edge and a lot of hypocrisy but no ideological backing from any real historical or higher moral pedigree or providence. This, of course, does make them VERY dangerous and untrustworthy, because they claim automatic moral high ground and refuse to admit the possibility of error, but have no true moral boundaries, in fact, and definitely believe all ends justify the means. Almost a cancer to true Christianity what Wahabi'ism is to true Islam.

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17 minutes ago, Patine said:

Well, since the MODERN POLITICAL "Religious Right" do not follow the "Ministry of Christ" in any case, and are often quite anathema to it, and don't really follow the proper tenets of any other religion of note, either, they're more an arbitrary, socially authoritarian, micromanaging, and petty social engineering faction with a harsh, mean-spirited edge and a lot of hypocrisy but no ideological backing from any real historical or higher moral pedigree or providence. This, of course, does make them VERY dangerous and untrustworthy, because they claim automatic moral high ground and refuse to admit the possibility of error, but have no true moral boundaries, in fact, and definitely believe all ends justify the means. Almost a cancer to true Christianity what Wahabi'ism is to true Islam.

Yep, agreed -- but you still haven't said what the actual problem with Buttigieg is.

For starters, I'd say he marks a breath of fresh air for being both an ACTUAL Christian (following the real teachings, not the religious right) while also not expecting a single other person to follow his faith.

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28 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Yep, agreed -- but you still haven't said what the actual problem with Buttigieg is.

For starters, I'd say he marks a breath of fresh air for being both an ACTUAL Christian (following the real teachings, not the religious right) while also not expecting a single other person to follow his faith.

I was referring to certain law enforcement initiatives while he was mayor - in cooperation with, and with funding by Pence - that negatively affected South Bend African-Americans, specifically.

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43 minutes ago, Patine said:

I was referring to certain law enforcement initiatives while he was mayor - in cooperation with, and with funding by Pence - that negatively affected South Bend African-Americans, specifically.

What law enforcement initiatives, specifically? And what realistic alternatives could he have done with legislative and executive support? 

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3 hours ago, Patine said:

I was referring to certain law enforcement initiatives while he was mayor - in cooperation with, and with funding by Pence - that negatively affected South Bend African-Americans, specifically.

Ahhh facts! How dare you actually research these candidates in point out to serious issues about them. That hurts our great American democracy.

 

Seriously though, thankful for your voice on the forum. 

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12 minutes ago, Dr. Insano said:

Ahhh facts! How dare you actually research these candidates in point out to serious issues about them. That hurts our great American democracy.

 

Seriously though, thankful for your voice on the forum. 

...he still hasn’t said anything.

 

WHAT law enforcement initiatives?

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