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vcczar

Truce and Terms

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Alright, 

The debates in the general forum are becoming stroke-inducing. I am about a comment away from losing the last semblance of respect for a few forum users on here. I do not want to get to this point. I now somewhat understand how someone like Charles Sumner probably felt like when having to debate, work with, or speak with someone like James Henry Hammond or a Hammond supporter. 

As this is the case, I will avoid all topics posted in the General Forum. Please do not tag me to posts. I'm about this close to leaving the forum altogether. 

I accept blame for my part of the incivility, but to prevent myself from continuing it, I will have to avoid reading the general posts as I will not be able to call out lunacy when I see it. 

What I read today in the thread was best summed up by @Patine, "Good Grief!" 

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22 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

And we're still 18 months from the election ...!

And I personally predict it's going to be another failure and cheating of the voters and another clear demonstration of the long-standing corruption, rigging, and stacked-deck nature of the U.S. partisan culture and system, the fifth least competitive, accountable, responsible, transparent, and free-and-fair in the First World, next only to Japan, Singapore, Hungary, and Romania and roughly on par with Portugal.

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4 minutes ago, TheLiberalKitten said:

I'm already sick of the 2020 US presidential election.

So am I. If it were a television series, the network should cancel it. Unfortunately, it's not...

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4 minutes ago, Patine said:

So am I. If it were a television series, the network should cancel it. Unfortunately, it's not...

*Sigh* 

:(

This is why I look at international elections as some of them are more interesting. :D

Historical elections are interesting to read about as well. 

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2 minutes ago, TheLiberalKitten said:

*Sigh* 

:(

This is why I look at international elections as some of them are more interesting. :D

Historical elections are interesting to read about as well. 

International and historical elections (and maybe some fictional hypothetical future ones that are actual fiction and not meant as prediction or prognostications) are all I have planned to do. Of course, technically, for me Canadian elections, which I plan a lot of are domestic, and U.S. elections are international, but, for the sake of avoiding confusion, I meant the term from the same perspective you did. ;)

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10 minutes ago, Patine said:

International and historical elections (and maybe some fictional hypothetical future ones that are actual fiction and not meant as prediction or prognostications) are all I have planned to do. Of course, technically, for me Canadian elections, which I plan a lot of are domestic, and U.S. elections are international, but, for the sake of avoiding confusion, I meant the term from the same perspective you did. ;)

Do you plan to do any Canadian Federal Elections or any provincial ones? :D

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6 minutes ago, TheLiberalKitten said:

Do you plan to do any Canadian Federal Elections or any provincial ones? :D

I have quite a lot of those planned, actually. How many I'll actually get finished, realistically, is another matter, but I have a bucket list. In fact, I'm currently working on Alberta 1935, the biggest political party upset and turnaround in a single election in North American history.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

I have quite a lot of those planned, actually. How many I'll actually get finished, realistically, is another matter, but I have a bucket list. In fact, I'm currently working on Alberta 1935, the biggest political party upset and turnaround in a single election in North American history.

If you need any pictures of leaders, party logos or issue images I can help out with requests. :)

 

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1 minute ago, TheLiberalKitten said:

If you need any pictures of leaders, party logos or issue images I can help out with requests. :)

 

I have all the pictures that I believe actually exist on the Internet currently. Some minor party leaders and Independents don't seem to have pictures (which is probably not surprising, considering a number of minor Third Party, Independent, and low-polling major party Primary candidate in very recent U.S. State-level elections even seem to be hard to dig up pictures of.

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4 minutes ago, TheLiberalKitten said:

If you need any pictures of leaders, party logos or issue images I can help out with requests. :)

 

But if you can find a picture of Jan Lakeman, the first leader of the Communist Party of Alberta, that would be stellar!

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

But if you can find a picture of Jan Lakeman, the first leader of the Communist Party of Alberta, that would be stellar!

I'll see what I can do. 

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1 hour ago, ThePotatoWalrus said:

More like a formal complaint than a truce but ok

He has a lot to complain about. And so do I...

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We're all gonna need to do the following the next several months. (Myself included)

1).  Use more respectful language, and raise the maturity level of posts. 

2). Develop thicker skin.  An opposing viewpoint, or even a controversial, unpopular opinion is not an attack on your intelligence and can't be treated as such. 

American, (not just this forum) will need to grow up a lot in the next few months, because the drama hasn't even begun.   

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5 hours ago, HonestAbe said:

We're all gonna need to do the following the next several months. (Myself included)

1).  Use more respectful language, and raise the maturity level of posts. 

2). Develop thicker skin.  An opposing viewpoint, or even a controversial, unpopular opinion is not an attack on your intelligence and can't be treated as such. 

American, (not just this forum) will need to grow up a lot in the next few months, because the drama hasn't even begun.   

Tensions and internal socio-political divisions along a sharp, visible rift in the United States are at levels nearing the late 1840's, the 1850's, and the early 1860's. This, obviously, is NOT a good thing.

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1 minute ago, HonestAbe said:

I think you might be slightly overestimating the divisions.  Most Americans are still reasonably centered. 

Maybe the average American on the street. But, you must admit, the political leaders, media and pundit talking heads, lobby groups faces, social activists, religious leaders, and vocal corporate donors are becoming a lot more polarized, divisive, radical, incendiary, and vitriolic on both sides. And since they're the ones who have the camera type - and the political, social, economic power, it doesn't bode well.

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I think humans in general like to exaggerate and over value their time and significance in history.  I don't think students in 2075 are going to dive into their history unit on the 2010's and 2020's to the same level they will the late 1700's or mid 1800's, or even the 1930's-1960's.  But who knows none of us will be around to see. 

I think in part people and especially politicians are bored right now.  The nation is so healthy it's finding issues to complain about, that wouldn't have gotten much air time 20 or 30 years ago.  We don't have a foreign rival so we have to try to portray the Russians as somehow significant again, we don't have a threats on border so we have to create one.  We have marches on Washington because some of the wealthiest people on the planet are upset that there are super wealthy people on the planet. 

There were issues during the Pax Romana, and people who lived in that hundred year window that thought government had left them behind, but nobody writes about them anymore.  America is at one of, if not it's most stable moment in time (due to Republican and Democratic leadership), most (not all) of the outrage is either, exaggerated, staged, or a viewpoint held by an incredible minority of Americans, or driven purely by boredom or a desire to increase significance in one's moment in time to "stand up against something" like many who came before.  

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27 minutes ago, HonestAbe said:

I think humans in general like to exaggerate and over value their time and significance in history.  I don't think students in 2075 are going to dive into their history unit on the 2010's and 2020's to the same level they will the late 1700's or mid 1800's, or even the 1930's-1960's.  But who knows none of us will be around to see. 

I think in part people and especially politicians are bored right now.  The nation is so healthy it's finding issues to complain about, that wouldn't have gotten much air time 20 or 30 years ago.  We don't have a foreign rival so we have to try to portray the Russians as somehow significant again, we don't have a threats on border so we have to create one.  We have marches on Washington because some of the wealthiest people on the planet are upset that there are super wealthy people on the planet. 

There were issues during the Pax Romana, and people who lived in that hundred year window that thought government had left them behind, but nobody writes about them anymore.  America is at one of, if not it's most stable moment in time (due to Republican and Democratic leadership), most (not all) of the outrage is either, exaggerated, staged, or a viewpoint held by an incredible minority of Americans, or driven purely by boredom or a desire to increase significance in one's moment in time to "stand up against something" like many who came before.  

Not all Americans have it that good. In fact, notably less do than you might think or believe.

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Compared to previous generations of Americans they do, compared to most around the world they do.  That’s what the data says. 

America is at one of its most stable moments in America history.  And the America as a “land of opportunity” is going strong.  The rate of immigration points to that. 

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37 minutes ago, HonestAbe said:

Compared to previous generations of Americans they do, compared to most around the world they do.  That’s what the data says. 

America is at one of its most stable moments in America history.  And the America as a “land of opportunity” is going strong.  The rate of immigration points to that. 

I wonder how the children in cages feel about the opportunities they are being presented.

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34 minutes ago, HonestAbe said:

Compared to previous generations of Americans they do, compared to most around the world they do.  That’s what the data says. 

America is at one of its most stable moments in America history.  And the America as a “land of opportunity” is going strong.  The rate of immigration points to that. 

Statistics are deceptive. The U.S. DOES indeed have the highest GDP total in the world, and, mathematically, when you chop it down into a number derived by the simple equation "total GDP divided by population," it has one of the 20 highest GDP per capita of any nation in the world. But, here's where the deception lies. The U.S. has the highest rate of wealth inequity and maldistribution in the First World, comparable to the amount inequity between socio-economic classes as India, Brazil, and Mexico. Also, even though a lot of U.S. citizens are employed (at shit, go-nowhere service jobs that are among the first cut in an economic recession and the easiest for employers for keep de-unionized through under-handed, browbeating tactics), and even they have easy access to junk food, soft drinks, and tap water that slowly poisons them and makes them fat, and televisions and cell-phones to placate them, distract them, fill them full of propaganda, rot their brains, and monitor them remotely, and they have a closet of an apartment for annually rising rental costs, and they have no guarantees about retirements or their children's futures, does NOT mean their living good, quality lives. And, realistically, at the end of the day, opportunity is drying up commodity for those not born with a silver spoon in their mouth, ready to take full advantage from springboard.

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P you were doing great your first half, you were using data to try to frame an argument.  Then you went back to hyperbole in the second half.  

If you want to talk wage gap, that's a fair conversation to have.  No argument from me the wage gap in America is quite substantial.  The existence of a wage gap in of itself is not a bad thing, I'd argue it's a good thing because it creates motivation.  But you (I think this is where you were going with the bottom before it got messy) is that that motivation piece only exists if it's a level(ish) playing field, and the opportunity to move up (or down) the many rungs along the way is possible.  (not guaranteed but possible)  America can, and must improve in this category.  The freedom we demand of our nation only exists if we create an environment where equality of opportunity exists.  Not equality of outcome, we need to be careful how we shape our course.  Equality of outcome and equality of opportunity can not co-exist, it's an impossibility.  If you take away equality of opportunity either through too much government regulation, or too little we become a less free society.  

This country is far from perfect and can improve, but that doesn't mean it can't be it's most stable at the same time, the two are not mutually exclusive.  It also doesn't mean that the average American isn't better off now than at anypoint in American history.  

Part of the reason for wage gap in America is that it's easier to become a millionaire in America than any country in the world.  For example there are more millionaires of color in America than in all of Africa and Asia combined. 

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