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5 minutes ago, Patine said:

To truly achieve social mobility in the U.S., and benefit from it (barring becoming rich through organized crime and other illegal venture), you must kiss the rings - and asses - of the powerful Plutocratic Oligarchy that effectively runs the country - the 1%, if you will. Thus, barring pure luck, or a start-up business in a very, very niche area, they decide who gets rich from the ranks of the hoipoloi, and can and will squash up-and-coming people who do not kowtow to one or another faction among the already entrenched ultra-rich. Because most other First World Nations (except maybe the UK, France, Italy, Japan, and Germany) do not have AS POWERFUL or AS MANY resident powerful Plutocrats, social mobility and self-made wealth slip by easier on one's own merits and without having to sell one's soul to the High Priesthood of Mammon, first.

Alas I was hopeful you’d actually answer my question, but your just preaching. 

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1 minute ago, HonestAbe said:

Alas I was hopeful you’d actually answer my question, but your just preaching. 

I don't see any preaching. But, since arbitrarily putting a derisive label on my posts - always inappropriate and immature, to date - to declare justification to just ignore it and declare it objectively has no credence or merit at all - seems to be your pitiful and feeble modus operandi here, I suppose I shouldn't be too upset or put any real value or meaning in your post at all - anymore than I would a 7-year-old who just called me a "poopyhead."

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You gave zero evidence about the US to support your claim.  

 

Ill give you some. 

In the US you have a 96% chance of avoiding poverty if you 1. Graduate College. 2. Get Married. 3. Have children. In that order.  Tell me another country where that is the case. 

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6 minutes ago, HonestAbe said:

You gave zero evidence about the US to support your claim.  

 

Ill give you some. 

In the US you have a 96% chance of avoiding poverty if you 1. Graduate College. 2. Get Married. 3. Have children. In that order.  Tell me another country where that is the case. 

Getting married and having children shouldn't be social obligations, or portrayed as fiscal incentives, in a modern, civilized nation. That's Medievalist thinking.

And, in Canada, and several European nations, the statistics are very similar. In fact, in several of the aforementioned European nations, it's easier to graduate college because tuitions are government subsidized, not based on a "either you're rich, you get lucky with a scholarship, or you take a mountain of debt."

Also, just avoiding poverty is not the classical watermark measure of social mobility, either.

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

 

And, in Canada, and several European nations, the statistics are very similar. In fact, in several of the aforementioned European nations, it's easier to graduate college because tuitions are government subsidized, 

I think this helps prove my point.  In America the individual can accomplish what other countries need the government to do for them. 

USA USA 🇺🇸 

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6 minutes ago, HonestAbe said:

I think this helps prove my point.  In America the individual can accomplish what other countries need the government to do for them. 

USA USA 🇺🇸 

America!

image.jpeg.82c326415318c8f309aea8905924cb39.jpeg

USA!

image.jpeg.dae7940f19569ae894cf9c62f25350bc.jpeg

We're number one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfvFpT-iypw

Land of the free!

Image result for us prison population vs world

Home of the Brave, so brave in fact, that we've spent most of our time as a sovereign nation at war!

Image result for us military interventions in latin america

Defender of Freedom and Democracy worldwide!

https://youtu.be/g5rVD_TXrjo

I love the grand ole US of A!!!!!!

 

Don't get me wrong, I know you don't care about any of this, I just like making fun of patriots, so feel free not to respond ;)

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50 minutes ago, HonestAbe said:

I think this helps prove my point.  In America the individual can accomplish what other countries need the government to do for them. 

USA USA 🇺🇸 

You just don't understand at all. You have no idea. You just talk from you're brainwashed, parochial, detached, ivory tower, Fox New speaking points, and lack all grasp of reality in this world beyond your own limited "box" in which you've been taught to think. How many Americans do you REALLY think can afford a MEANINGFUL college education with reasonable promise of gainful employment without becoming a slave indentured to massive debt or obligation, that puts far lower on the long-term totem pole of "self-achievement" than receiving government subsidized tuition. What percentage of Americans do you actually think have such a MEANINGFUL college education with reasonable promise of gainful employment, and of those (great number) who don't, how many do you think personally bear true responsibility or fault for that lack?

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@WVProgressive k America did non-government authorized war crimes (at least in the modern age) but compare that to the Commies in the Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Ukraine, China, Romania, Cambodia, North Korea, Peru, Vietnam, Tibet, Cuba, China again, and East Germany that directly ordered the mass genocide, torture, and internment of hundreds of millions of people and some deviant US soldiers plugging a few people who sympathized with them doesn't look so bad.

Crazy how someone can support the full implementation of a repeatedly failed system based on their own uneducated, personal opinion that has repeatedly slaughtered huge chunks of the global population and nobody cares lmao.

I fully condemn any US-sanctioned war-crimes and am fully non-interventionist but you can always move north if you want. Heard it's nice up there except for the geese.

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3 minutes ago, ThePotatoWalrus said:

@WVProgressive k America did non-government authorized war crimes (at least in the modern age) but compare that to the Commies in the Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Ukraine, China, Romania, Cambodia, North Korea, Peru, Vietnam, Tibet, Cuba, China again, and East Germany that directly ordered the mass genocide, torture, and internment of hundreds of millions of people and some deviant US soldiers plugging a few people who sympathized with them doesn't look so bad.

Crazy how someone can support the full implementation of a repeatedly failed system based on their own uneducated, personal opinion that has repeatedly slaughtered huge chunks of the global population and nobody cares lmao.

I fully condemn any US-sanctioned war-crimes and am fully non-interventionist but you can always move north if you want. Heard it's nice up there except for the geese.

It's not a contest. ALL of the war criminals still alive EVERYWHERE in the world being protected by their governments and lauded as heroes (vomits) by their home nations deserve to face war crimes tribunals. There's no need, or benefit, or virtue to discriminate. CLEAN HOUSE AND SHOW THE OTHERS TO COME WHAT EVIL WILL BRING!

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13 hours ago, WVProgressive said:

America!

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I know you don't care about any of this, I just like making fun of patriots, so feel free not to respond ;)

Unfortunately not on point at all to the wealth gap/social mobility discussion above. 

Luckily you aren't in a debate class, you'd be asking for extra credit right now. 

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13 hours ago, Patine said:

You just don't understand at all. You have no idea. You just talk from you're brainwashed, parochial, detached, ivory tower, Fox New speaking points, and lack all grasp of reality in this world beyond your own limited "box" in which you've been taught to think. How many Americans do you REALLY think can afford a MEANINGFUL college education with reasonable promise of gainful employment without becoming a slave indentured to massive debt or obligation, that puts far lower on the long-term totem pole of "self-achievement" than receiving government subsidized tuition. What percentage of Americans do you actually think have such a MEANINGFUL college education with reasonable promise of gainful employment, and of those (great number) who don't, how many do you think personally bear true responsibility or fault for that lack?

There you go again instead of bringing evidence to the conversation, you start with the personal attacks to attempt to use to devalue the statistics I used.  Then you use words like "meaningful" which are in the eye of the beholder and unmeasurable as to not actually have to defend a counter argument.  

You do understand college debt is so high in America because the government has made it easier to get student loans, and colleges inflate cost to acquire the extra available cash don't you?  Government interference has corrupted this, not the "cost of education"

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13 minutes ago, HonestAbe said:

There you go again instead of bringing evidence to the conversation, you start with the personal attacks to attempt to use to devalue the statistics I used.  Then you use words like "meaningful" which are in the eye of the beholder and unmeasurable as to not actually have to defend a counter argument.  

You do understand college debt is so high in America because the government has made it easier to get student loans, and colleges inflate cost to acquire the extra available cash don't you?  Government interference has corrupted this, not the "cost of education"

Your statistics are flawed. First, you equate "avoiding poverty" as the sole indicator of "social mobility." I understand you probably are not a social worker by profession and were not required to take basic sociology in college - but the fact is, there is far more to social mobility than avoiding poverty. Second, where are your statistics that avoiding poverty is so much harder in EVERY OTHER nation on Earth? I don't believe you did any research on that at all - it SEEMS to just be a nationalistic assumption. And, tell me how being indentured by a mountain of debt for college makes that education lesser in nature, in a practical sense, than having it through a government subsidization? Either way, someone like Ayn Rand or Thomas Jefferson would say, in BOTH CASES, "your soul was not your own," and other rhetoric they like to use and that are quoted by American Libertaians, essentially. Neither is a 'pull up your bootstraps" situation over the other, in the end. Or, have you, yourself, been under a mountain of debt?

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Your statistics are flawed. First, you equate "avoiding poverty" as the sole indicator of "social mobility." 

Please direct me to the quote of mine. 

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16 hours ago, HonestAbe said:

You gave zero evidence about the US to support your claim.  

 

Ill give you some. 

In the US you have a 96% chance of avoiding poverty if you 1. Graduate College. 2. Get Married. 3. Have children. In that order.  Tell me another country where that is the case. 

Right here. It was the ONLY statistic you provided or acknowledged as meaningful to defend the United States having the "greatest social mobility" in the world. And, indeed there are other countries where the that statistic is the case, more or less. And that's where the debate of whether being under a mountain of debt for college was, in truth, more of an achievement and a true source of pride and prosperity for most than having government subsidies for college.

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16 hours ago, Patine said:

You just don't understand at all. You have no idea. You just talk from you're brainwashed, parochial, detached, ivory tower, Fox New speaking points, and lack all grasp of reality in this world beyond your own limited "box" in which you've been taught to think. How many Americans do you REALLY think can afford a MEANINGFUL college education with reasonable promise of gainful employment without becoming a slave indentured to massive debt or obligation, that puts far lower on the long-term totem pole of "self-achievement" than receiving government subsidized tuition. What percentage of Americans do you actually think have such a MEANINGFUL college education with reasonable promise of gainful employment, and of those (great number) who don't, how many do you think personally bear true responsibility or fault for that lack?

Regarding tuition

#1: If more people took advantage of 2 years of community college, then their cost would be way down.

#2: If you work your tail off in high school (get good grades, work at increasing your ACT/SAT, be involved in the community. etc.), you can set yourself well for college (what I had to do in order to get a good scholarship)

#3: Take the most affordable option even if it isn't your preferred option (what I had to do)

#4: Don't major in something that doesn't help your career goals, such as gender studies

#5: Work hard in college, don't party, don't make bad decisions, be responsible and you should graduate

#6: Be open to alternative options, such as trade school

 

All these options involve personal responsibility.  I could go into a whole lot of other things done at the governmental level which increase the cost of education

For example, federal loan programs make it very easy to get money (makes it easy to raise prices too)

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3 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

Regarding tuition

#1: If more people took advantage of 2 years of community college, then their cost would be way down.

#2: If you work your tail off in high school (get good grades, work at increasing your ACT/SAT, be involved in the community. etc.), you can set yourself well for college (what I had to do in order to get a good scholarship)

#3: Take the most affordable option even if it isn't your preferred option (what I had to do)

#4: Don't major in something that doesn't help your career goals, such as gender studies

#5: Work hard in college, don't party, don't make bad decisions, be responsible and you should graduate

#6: Be open to alternative options, such as trade school

 

All these options involve personal responsibility.  I could go into a whole lot of other things done at the governmental level which increase the cost of education

For example, federal loan programs make it very easy to get money (makes it easy to raise prices too)

As a student around the same age as you, I'd like to take a moment to politely refute some of your points. 

1. Two year community college isn't universally offered across the nation. In Tennessee, it is free for students with good academic standing but not in most other states. Additionally, a two year program may not be beneficial to you in the long run. For example, I am able to finish my studies at The University of Tennessee-Knoxville in 3 semesters, while the alternative would have been 4 semesters in community college and then another 4 in university transferring in with an associates. 

2. I also worked very hard in high school, and I recall us discussing our shared Advanced Placement classes. I scored a 31 on the ACT, rank 7 in class, GPA 4.5, was student body vice president, active in culture clubs, etc. This ultimately resulted in very little financial benefit to most colleges in Tennessee, certainly not enough to cover the costs of even tuition. On top of this, there is no reason that a less capable student should have to pay a ludicrous amount of money to attend college. Higher education has been driven ridiculously cheap by a lack of government intervention over the years. We can and should be upset by this. It is an insult to America that we cannot provide for our citizens education. 

3. Read above. The most affordable option may not be the best option for you, and we should not have to settle. 

4. Agreed, actually. One reason costs have been driven so high is BS degrees that contribute nothing to the university. A gender studies degree could easily be a tract under sociology or whatnot and part of a larger, more useful degree with less negative connotations. 

5. Eh, irrelevant either way. I party and make "bad decisions" but as long as you prioritize school first you're fine. 

6. Also agreed. Trade schools should be more encouraged in middle and high schools, just as college is. It is admirable to work in HVAC, plumbing, welding, etc, and takes a considerable amount of skill and technical expertise. I will want my children to be aware of the potential benefits of attending a trade school. 

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1 hour ago, Herbert Hoover said:

As a student around the same age as you, I'd like to take a moment to politely refute some of your points. 

1. Two year community college isn't universally offered across the nation. In Tennessee, it is free for students with good academic standing but not in most other states. Additionally, a two year program may not be beneficial to you in the long run. For example, I am able to finish my studies at The University of Tennessee-Knoxville in 3 semesters, while the alternative would have been 4 semesters in community college and then another 4 in university transferring in with an associates. 

2. I also worked very hard in high school, and I recall us discussing our shared Advanced Placement classes. I scored a 31 on the ACT, rank 7 in class, GPA 4.5, was student body vice president, active in culture clubs, etc. This ultimately resulted in very little financial benefit to most colleges in Tennessee, certainly not enough to cover the costs of even tuition. On top of this, there is no reason that a less capable student should have to pay a ludicrous amount of money to attend college. Higher education has been driven ridiculously cheap by a lack of government intervention over the years. We can and should be upset by this. It is an insult to America that we cannot provide for our citizens education. 

3. Read above. The most affordable option may not be the best option for you, and we should not have to settle. 

4. Agreed, actually. One reason costs have been driven so high is BS degrees that contribute nothing to the university. A gender studies degree could easily be a tract under sociology or whatnot and part of a larger, more useful degree with less negative connotations. 

5. Eh, irrelevant either way. I party and make "bad decisions" but as long as you prioritize school first you're fine. 

6. Also agreed. Trade schools should be more encouraged in middle and high schools, just as college is. It is admirable to work in HVAC, plumbing, welding, etc, and takes a considerable amount of skill and technical expertise. I will want my children to be aware of the potential benefits of attending a trade school. 

1. If cost is an issue, then you will accept some of the inconveniences that comes with community college.  It's not free here in KY, but it is still a LOT cheaper than a place like UK or private colleges.  I have a few friends who have chosen this option because of the cost benefits despite the negatives that also come with it.  Even if you are planning to get a bachelor's degree, those 2 years of significantly less cost will greatly help for the overall cost in the long run.  UK, for example, has a partnership with BCTC which allows for students to continue paying the lower price at UK even after graduating community college (though dorms are still pricy because they insist on having them as 5 star hotels).

2. It is true that success isn't always fully rewarded (thanks affirmative action!).  The scholarship I received from the institution I attend was the last one I heard back from.  I was very close to being stuck in a tough position regarding finances.  UK offered me crap when it came to financial aid (especially considering the price of housing).  However, being successful puts you in a better spot than otherwise.

3. Sacrifices have to be made.  Things don't always go the way you want them to go.  If they did, I would be at Ohio State right now.  But, it was way outside of my price range.  In today's society, where you graduate from doesn't make a whole lot of difference when it comes to undergraduate studies.  That's why affordability should be placed higher than where you want to go.  If you chose a higher cost to go where you would prefer to go, then that is on you for choosing the more expensive option.

5. I'm not saying that this'll necessarily effect someone.  However, avoiding the above activities puts one in a better position than participating.

 

Also, I am not claiming with these points that the system works.  I believe there needs to be some reforms (such as getting rid of easy access to loans); however, these are ways to best work within the current system.

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2 hours ago, jvikings1 said:

Regarding tuition

#1: If more people took advantage of 2 years of community college, then their cost would be way down.

#2: If you work your tail off in high school (get good grades, work at increasing your ACT/SAT, be involved in the community. etc.), you can set yourself well for college (what I had to do in order to get a good scholarship)

#3: Take the most affordable option even if it isn't your preferred option (what I had to do)

#4: Don't major in something that doesn't help your career goals, such as gender studies

#5: Work hard in college, don't party, don't make bad decisions, be responsible and you should graduate

#6: Be open to alternative options, such as trade school

 

All these options involve personal responsibility.  I could go into a whole lot of other things done at the governmental level which increase the cost of education

For example, federal loan programs make it very easy to get money (makes it easy to raise prices too)

But this also serves the American Plutocracy moreso (once again), because only the rich and those sponsored by fickle scholarships are likely to become doctors, lawyers, scientists, or engineers - those of lower socio-economic backgrounds USUALLY will have to settle for the trades, nursing, primary or secondary teaching, etc. And thus, a major blow to the claim of the United States having the "greatest amount of social mobility in the world" is delivered right there.

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45 minutes ago, Patine said:

But this also serves the American Plutocracy moreso (once again), because only the rich and those sponsored by fickle scholarships are likely to become doctors, lawyers, scientists, or engineers - those of lower socio-economic backgrounds USUALLY will have to settle for the trades, nursing, primary or secondary teaching, etc. And thus, a major blow to the claim of the United States having the "greatest amount of social mobility in the world" is delivered right there.

My family is not connected and is in the middle class (middle now, lower middle early in my life).  My parents came from lower middle class to lower class families and had to work their way to where they are.  I have to work to where I want to go.  It takes hard work, sacrifice, and persistence.  If one puts on the work and is dedicated, they can have a successful life and career (like my parents have achieved and I hope to as well).

 

Also, trades make good money which can set up a person’s kids well for the future.  My cousin’s husband is a plumber and makes bank.  Working on cars is another quality trade to know.

 

Im not saying it is easy to move up.  But, if one has the dedication and puts in the effort, they can move up in society.

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4 hours ago, jvikings1 said:

My family is not connected and is in the middle class (middle now, lower middle early in my life).  My parents came from lower middle class to lower class families and had to work their way to where they are.  I have to work to where I want to go.  It takes hard work, sacrifice, and persistence.  If one puts on the work and is dedicated, they can have a successful life and career (like my parents have achieved and I hope to as well).

 

Also, trades make good money which can set up a person’s kids well for the future.  My cousin’s husband is a plumber and makes bank.  Working on cars is another quality trade to know.

 

Im not saying it is easy to move up.  But, if one has the dedication and puts in the effort, they can move up in society.

But Donald Trump was "loaned" several million dollars by his rich father to "make something of himself" (and given connections to a bunch of his father's rich friends to tell him the ropes - including loopholes and who to give kickbacks to and to butter up). The man has never done a day of backbreaking work in his life. This is practically the epitomy of the Medieval concept of "gentle birth" (the root of the modern terms "gentleman" or "gentry" - but in that day, meaning noble lineage by blood). There are a lot more people like him in the U.S. - including the Bush, Kennedy, and Rockefeller families, the Koch Brothers, the second and third generation Waltons, many children of movie stars, musicians, and professional athletes, etc. All your hard work and dedication is EXTREMELY hard pressed to compete with their running head start, with which they easily excel and glide ahead. And THAT is why I say social mobility is not as great in the U.S. as @HonestAbe, you, and others claim it is.

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4 minutes ago, Patine said:

But Donald Trump was "loaned" several million dollars by his rich father to "make something of himself" (and given connections to a bunch of his father's rich friends to tell him the ropes - including loopholes and who to give kickbacks to and to butter up). The man has never done a day of backbreaking work in his life. This is practically the epitomy of the Medieval concept of "gentle birth" (the root of the modern terms "gentleman" or "gentry" - but in that day, meaning noble lineage by blood). There are a lot more people like him in the U.S. - including the Bush, Kennedy, and Rockefeller families, the Koch Brothers, the second and third generation Waltons, many children of movie stars, musicians, and professional athletes, etc. All your hard work and dedication is EXTREMELY hard pressed to compete with their running head start, with which they easily excel and glide ahead. And THAT is why I say social mobility is not as great in the U.S. as @HonestAbe, you, and others claim it is.

I agree that it hasn't been easy (and will continue to be difficult into the future).  Would it be nice to have that head start?  Absolutely.  However, I must do the most with what my situation presents and put in the hard work necessary to try and move up.  And, if I stick to my path, I believe I have a chance to achieve my goals in life.

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Just now, jvikings1 said:

I agree that it hasn't been easy (and will continue to be difficult into the future).  Would it be nice to have that head start?  Absolutely.  However, I must do the most with what my situation presents and put in the hard work necessary to try and move up.  And, if I stick to my path, I believe I have a chance to achieve my goals in life.

That fatalism (in the traditional sense of accepting the world as it is because it is as it should be and you are powerless and wrong morally to want to drastically change it - not the modern usage of having it be synonamous with "nihilism") is worthy of Norse Polytheism. Are you sure you haven't joined the Sons of Odin lately? :P

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