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Predicting the 2020 Dem nominee

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2 hours ago, Patine said:

Suck it up, grow up, and get a REAL education, and a REALISTIC perspective on things...

Always classy 

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4 minutes ago, HonestAbe said:

Always classy 

An attempt at irony, or just an overt slip into hypocracy there? 

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

An attempt at irony, or just an overt slip into hypocracy there? 

I thought it was hypocrisy

In regards to your spelling, not his choice of words.

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On 7/23/2019 at 1:53 PM, ThePotatoWalrus said:

America still the best country regardless of who wins 🇺🇸🇺🇸

That's it, I'm reporting this comment for racism! 😜

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On 7/23/2019 at 2:35 PM, Patine said:

As I said, in a few areas, but there are a VERY LARGE number of defining qualities and standards on which nations are judged from each other qualitively the U.S. falls short of number one on, and often has for many years (some of which it has NEVER been number one on), and a fair number it falls quite SHARPLY short of number one on.

On 7/23/2019 at 2:35 PM, Patine said:

As I said, in a few areas, but there are a VERY LARGE number of defining qualities and standards on which nations are judged from each other qualitively the U.S. falls short of number one on, and often has for many years (some of which it has NEVER been number one on), and a fair number it falls quite SHARPLY short of number one on.

Anyone can look at any country and find pros and cons (well with a few they're only cons). Why is America the greatest? It's because of our heritage, who we are. How many other countries have our freedoms, our Constitution, Bill of Rights? Hell, in the UK they're jailing people for posting jokes online! We were one of the first nations founded on the radical notion that a people can rule themselves without a monarchy. And we are truly the world's last best hope for freedom. Europeans are quickly losing their freedoms to the EU bureaucracy. They're letting in millions of people unchecked from savage Mid Eastern cultures who don't assimilate, commit all sorts of crimes in the name of Sharia Law and the native citizens are being thrown in jail as Islamophobes if they complain. Australia and New Zealand are taking people's guns away en masse. Why are we special? Because of our Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees. We've lasted so long because we're a country that was founded on freedom and liberty, whether that's the right to worship as you wish, own a gun, or speak your mind. No other country guarantees those rights. Malcontents who complain about our Constitution, our Electoral College, our capitalist system should take a trip back to 1773 Boston to know what true oppression is. The only problem is that we've become rich, and abundant and with those things comes complacency. With complacency comes apathy and we take those freedoms for granted. Go and watch "The Patriot" and the horrors that colonists had to put up with. The Founders knew that democracies often fail which is why they put a Constitutional republic into place. This doesn't mean we're perfect, we've always had problems, we haven't always treated everyone fairly, but I can say with confidence that no other nation in the history of the world has provided so much opportunity for so many people, been so tolerant, had the freedoms we've had, and no other nation has ever acquired so much power and used it for so much good. Where would the rest of the worldd be without us? Speaking German and Japanese, that's for damn sure.

And when I see an entire political party (yes I'm GOING to go there, if you don't like it, tough) trying to tear it all down and turn us into an unrecognizable version of ourselves, I have to, just like POTUS, ask, "What are you doing here, then?" I'd like the people who claim to be pro-LGBT go to their precious Muslim countries and see how THEY treat women and LGBT. I'd like to send the people who hate our 2nd Amendment back to 18th century British-occupied Boston. I'd like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Occasional Cortex to live in Venezuela, see how they like Socialism. I'd like anyone who complains about our Constitution as some tired old piece of parchment to try living without it, giving up their rights of free speech and due process under the law. It's easy to complain when things aren't perfect, or to complain about minutia like "the government doesn't give us enough free stuff" (as if that's their job, buy your own damn healthcare, it's not a right!). But I can't think of any other country I could live in right now, any place that has the level of freedom and opportunity for all people that we have here. Folks, if we fail at that, there is NOWHERE left to go. No other country that has the level of freedom and opportunity we have. Some malcontents will judge how free a country is by how many "free" services the government "provides." That's not freedom, man, that's slavery to government bureaucracy. Keep our taxes and regulations low and we'll be able to afford our own health care. THAT is the American way! Individualism and freedom! Capitalism and opportunity. Everyone can climb that ladder if they work at it, no matter what their gender, race, sexual orientation or anything. NO ONE in 2019 is oppressed, that's political rhetoric used to scare people into voting for one political party that uses their votes to keep them dependent on government, and the intergenerational cycle of poverty, excuses, and learned helplessness continues.

 

I can't speak for all patriots but I think when most of us say USA is the greatest, it's the idea of who we are, the ideal we live up to, the shining city on the hill that has made us a magnet for millions of people from all corners of the globe. I'll finish with a simple question: If we're not the greatest, why have we been hands-down the #1 target of world immigration for 150 years by far? That doesn't mean people of other nations shouldn't think theirs is the best. I think national pride is a duty of any country's citizens, but the fact is that the world would be a far worse place without us.

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On 7/23/2019 at 4:19 PM, vcczar said:

Certainly. If I could have picked where I was born, I would have preferred Finland, Sweden, or Norway.  The US would certainly be in my top 10, possibly #4 or #5. The only thing that prevents me from moving is that It's hard to get citizenship and a job there if you aren't born there. As such, I'm content to be in the US as a matter of convenience rather than by preference. I'm sure if I put forth the effort I could probably get a job there. 

This said, this is all assumption on my part as I've never lived in these countries. I'd have to live in every single tier 1 country to be able to definitively say that the US is the best country or not. 

Well you are free to move there if you'd like. YES that's right I said it. I mean it's your choice. Nothing right or wrong about it but you do seem to be contradicting yourself. If you think they're better, why stay here? Perfectly reasonable question, just like Trump with those congresswomen. You say that and then you say you're in the US "for convenience." Does that make it more convenient than Scandinavia?  One thing I do admire about them, even though they have high taxes and a welfare state, it works because they're small homogeneous countries with strict citizenship rules who don't give away benefits to anyone choosing to enter, even if they enter legally. More than I can say for us. Their social programs also work because they not only restrict it to their citizens (which is fewer people than many states) but they  basically outsourced their military (and their NATO dues) to us. If they actually had to pay money for a military, their lovely free-everything government programs would collapse. One of these days we're going to pull back our forces from Europe and see how long those tiny nations are able to last on their own. Within a decade they'll all be speaking Russian or Chinese (or dare I say Arabic) and be living under Sharia Law (if they aren't already).

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21 minutes ago, servo75 said:

Well you are free to move there if you'd like. YES that's right I said it. I mean it's your choice. Nothing right or wrong about it but you do seem to be contradicting yourself. If you think they're better, why stay here? Perfectly reasonable question, just like Trump with those congresswomen. You say that and then you say you're in the US "for convenience." Does that make it more convenient than Scandinavia?  One thing I do admire about them, even though they have high taxes and a welfare state, it works because they're small homogeneous countries with strict citizenship rules who don't give away benefits to anyone choosing to enter, even if they enter legally. More than I can say for us. Their social programs also work because they not only restrict it to their citizens (which is fewer people than many states) but they  basically outsourced their military (and their NATO dues) to us. If they actually had to pay money for a military, their lovely free-everything government programs would collapse. One of these days we're going to pull back our forces from Europe and see how long those tiny nations are able to last on their own. Within a decade they'll all be speaking Russian or Chinese (or dare I say Arabic) and be living under Sharia Law (if they aren't already).

In regards to their strict citizenship, you'll notice that I prefaced my response by saying, "If I could pick where I was born." In regards to convenience, it is inconvenient for me to go there because of how difficult it is to get citizenship and the benefits therein, but that doesn't prevent me from not awarding these countries top 5 status, because they do treat their citizens as all citizens of the world should be treated. Those countries are becoming a lot less homogeneous by the way. I would be up for the US outsourcing our military and greatly restricting our military budget for the universally superior social programs of these Scandinavian countries, even if it means we might be speaking Russian, Chinese, Spanish, Ebonics, or Klingon. 

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1 hour ago, servo75 said:

That's it, I'm reporting this comment for racism! 😜

Whoops I forgot, having cultural and national pride as a white person makes you far-right, lol.

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10 hours ago, vcczar said:

In regards to their strict citizenship, you'll notice that I prefaced my response by saying, "If I could pick where I was born." In regards to convenience, it is inconvenient for me to go there because of how difficult it is to get citizenship and the benefits therein, but that doesn't prevent me from not awarding these countries top 5 status, because they do treat their citizens as all citizens of the world should be treated. Those countries are becoming a lot less homogeneous by the way. I would be up for the US outsourcing our military and greatly restricting our military budget for the universally superior social programs of these Scandinavian countries, even if it means we might be speaking Russian, Chinese, Spanish, Ebonics, or Klingon. 

That's fair enough that moving there would be difficult. But as far as "universally superior" social programs, that will just be where you and I differ. As I said in a different post, I don't judge countries by how much "free" services they provide. Everything has a cost. I'd much rather pay a fraction of taxes and use that money to buy my own bennies on the free market at a lower price created from capatilistic competition.

The fallacy that the Bernie types make when saying universal health care will save us money is assuming that the extra tax is dollar-for-dollar equivalent with spending that same amount of money on insurance premiums. Here's what I mean in an obviously oversimplified example: Let's suppose that single-payer health care results in a $500 per month increase in my taxes (yes it will vary with income and family size and all the other IRS niceties, it's just an example). Let's be generous and say that only $100 of that goes to pay the overhead, and cost and salaries of all the government bureaucrats and overhead that runs the program and $400 goes to pay the "premium," as well as assume that the government runs this plan efficiently and the rates/taxes don't go sky high like most government "investments."  Well then, let me make a counterproposal: Howsabout we skip the excess tax, let me spend $400 on buying a private plan and pocket the extra $100 for myself. Not only that, but a government plan has no competition. If we buy our plans on the private market and open it up to interstate competition and remove all the restrictions on plans that Obamacare puts in, that $400 premium through free market competition may go down to $300. So to me the choice is $500 extra in taxes for a government plan that I have no say in and has no incentive to make their service better because there's no competition, with all the waiting lines and care rationing (ask the parents of the late Charlie Gard) that you see in those "superior" European programs, vs. only paying $300 for a plan that I choose, is open to competition and therefore more responsive to the consumer and still having $200 left over that I can pocket for myself. It's not even a choice. Again I realize this is highly oversimplified but I think you get my point.

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In truth, I really hope Jay Inslee gets the nomination...

 

... that way at least we get him out of our state for 6 months.

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14 hours ago, servo75 said:

Anyone can look at any country and find pros and cons (well with a few they're only cons). Why is America the greatest? It's because of our heritage, who we are. How many other countries have our freedoms, our Constitution, Bill of Rights? Hell, in the UK they're jailing people for posting jokes online! We were one of the first nations founded on the radical notion that a people can rule themselves without a monarchy. And we are truly the world's last best hope for freedom. Europeans are quickly losing their freedoms to the EU bureaucracy. They're letting in millions of people unchecked from savage Mid Eastern cultures who don't assimilate, commit all sorts of crimes in the name of Sharia Law and the native citizens are being thrown in jail as Islamophobes if they complain. Australia and New Zealand are taking people's guns away en masse. Why are we special? Because of our Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees. We've lasted so long because we're a country that was founded on freedom and liberty, whether that's the right to worship as you wish, own a gun, or speak your mind. No other country guarantees those rights. Malcontents who complain about our Constitution, our Electoral College, our capitalist system should take a trip back to 1773 Boston to know what true oppression is. The only problem is that we've become rich, and abundant and with those things comes complacency. With complacency comes apathy and we take those freedoms for granted. Go and watch "The Patriot" and the horrors that colonists had to put up with. The Founders knew that democracies often fail which is why they put a Constitutional republic into place. This doesn't mean we're perfect, we've always had problems, we haven't always treated everyone fairly, but I can say with confidence that no other nation in the history of the world has provided so much opportunity for so many people, been so tolerant, had the freedoms we've had, and no other nation has ever acquired so much power and used it for so much good. Where would the rest of the worldd be without us? Speaking German and Japanese, that's for damn sure.

And when I see an entire political party (yes I'm GOING to go there, if you don't like it, tough) trying to tear it all down and turn us into an unrecognizable version of ourselves, I have to, just like POTUS, ask, "What are you doing here, then?" I'd like the people who claim to be pro-LGBT go to their precious Muslim countries and see how THEY treat women and LGBT. I'd like to send the people who hate our 2nd Amendment back to 18th century British-occupied Boston. I'd like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Occasional Cortex to live in Venezuela, see how they like Socialism. I'd like anyone who complains about our Constitution as some tired old piece of parchment to try living without it, giving up their rights of free speech and due process under the law. It's easy to complain when things aren't perfect, or to complain about minutia like "the government doesn't give us enough free stuff" (as if that's their job, buy your own damn healthcare, it's not a right!). But I can't think of any other country I could live in right now, any place that has the level of freedom and opportunity for all people that we have here. Folks, if we fail at that, there is NOWHERE left to go. No other country that has the level of freedom and opportunity we have. Some malcontents will judge how free a country is by how many "free" services the government "provides." That's not freedom, man, that's slavery to government bureaucracy. Keep our taxes and regulations low and we'll be able to afford our own health care. THAT is the American way! Individualism and freedom! Capitalism and opportunity. Everyone can climb that ladder if they work at it, no matter what their gender, race, sexual orientation or anything. NO ONE in 2019 is oppressed, that's political rhetoric used to scare people into voting for one political party that uses their votes to keep them dependent on government, and the intergenerational cycle of poverty, excuses, and learned helplessness continues.

 

I can't speak for all patriots but I think when most of us say USA is the greatest, it's the idea of who we are, the ideal we live up to, the shining city on the hill that has made us a magnet for millions of people from all corners of the globe. I'll finish with a simple question: If we're not the greatest, why have we been hands-down the #1 target of world immigration for 150 years by far? That doesn't mean people of other nations shouldn't think theirs is the best. I think national pride is a duty of any country's citizens, but the fact is that the world would be a far worse place without us.

First of all, in terms of "greatest country in the world," I notice you're still speaking in absolutes, like in a recent response to @Reagan04, you were speaking in strict binary terms. Neither of these ways of thinking or speaking belong in the social sciences - that's not how they work - they're very different than mathematics, physics, or chemistry, as endeavours of study, because the "human factor," makes thinks completely different. As someone who is also Generation-X (the colloquial terms for those, more or less, between the Boomers and the Millennials, generationally), I grew up with most, in a general sense, of what you did. I remember seeing Reagan and Gorbachev (and their summits) live on TV (when cable was still a luxury for many, and even a fair number of middle-class just watched network television, on those box-shaped colour TV's with fake-wood panelling), as well as the Fall of the Berlin Wall, and other big events. But you seem to be in denial, or perhaps trying mitigate, a lot of how the U.S. has gone downhill in many since then - and more of these ways from within than outside, I'm afraid. American society and culture is on the brink of tearing itself apart in a vicious, internal socio-political divide of the intensity that has not been seen since the 1850's - and it's a fire fed fervently and gleefully by both sides - neither is just a "victim." The United States apparati of governance have become thoroughly and utterly corrupt, self-serving, and lacking a lot of simple transparency and accountability that they frankly "owe" the people by nature of the Constitution and the "social contract," not to mention that they're funded by taxpayers' money. It seems most major and vocal U.S. politicians have utterly forgotten one of the important job descriptions they all hold - PUBLIC SERVANT. And, in this, I mean BOTH major parties are acting in these inappropriate ways and betraying the trust - there's not one that has a better record of integrity on this issue than other. Of course, because the electoral system is thoroughly rigged, one or other of these two PARITES OF CRIMINALS AND TRAITORS TO THEIR OWN PEOPLE AND NATION - and yes, I'm going to say that - cannot lose power, because EVERYONE knows it's near impossible, and very rare, for a "Third Party or independent" (even a single throwaway, dismissive, term to lump ALL non-Duopoly "dissidents" into) to win, because the actual corrupt and rigged electoral engines are stacked against them, as well as backroom deals with media corporations. Which brings me to the next pillar of "the Degredation of American Greatness from Within" - the mega-corporate donors, and wealthy special interest groups, and big corporations in the modern day in general - the "American Capitalist Dream turned Nightmare." The abuses of corporatized culture and economics today is appalling. The 1% idea is not a myth - it is a neo-feudal consolidation of wealth, assets, usable land, resources, and sources of production into the effective hands of the very through nepotism, corruption, dirty corporate practices, and outright bribing government into cooperation - which is now effectively legal with the Supreme Court in favour of Citizens United - or more appropriately, "Plutocrats United to Screw Over the Common Citizens (that caused the justices opining for it to become guilty of treason and sedition against their nation and people - but since most of the executive and legislative - of BOTH major parties - is any ways, too, they're all going to protect from any consequences, Mafiaso-style). And, the employees of these big corporations - the backbone of all these captains of industry - are being slowly moved, through corrupt government accomplices (like a Scott Walker, as a VERY good example) to Industrial Revolution levels of legal obligation of employer to employee, allowance for collective and labour union bargaining, protection form summary dismissal and non-outright-criminal expectations and demands by employers, employee safety standards, benefits, and retirement packages, etc., which back in the Industrial Revolution, pretty much all amounted to NONE - we can see the move in this direction. And the consumers are also getting screwed over, as a number of consumer-protection, manufacturer accountability, and anti-false advertising laws have been repealed, here and there, over the years, which have all led to - you guessed it, bigger corporate, but NOT lower commodity or service prices. And the outright, aggregious breach and violation of the 13th Amendment that is still tolerated by the labour done in the vile slave pits of "privatized prisons," is an appalling stain. And, of course, the cesspool of the U.S. Media in the last almost two decades itself. You can't find a news channel, show, or site based in the U.S. anymore that does not just drip venomous with one overt and in-your-face political bias or another. The United States is not the romanticized dream and ideal you still hold it to be. In fact, to quote a term you used so derisively in a post to @Reagan04, it HAS already been FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED in our lifetimes, at least, at definitely for the worse. And, it's been an inside job, and a bipartisan one. Time to wake-up from the old Dream! Morning's looking dreary...

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3 hours ago, Patine said:

First of all, in terms of "greatest country in the world," I notice you're still speaking in absolutes, like in a recent response to @Reagan04, you were speaking in strict binary terms. Neither of these ways of thinking or speaking belong in the social sciences - that's not how they work

*Sigh* I'm not a social scientist, simply a dumb deplorable flyover yokel giving my opinion. I'm allowed to speak in absolutes when I see fit and relatives when I see fit. I don't see why you keep harping on that. I'm sick and tired of defending myself on that respect and will not do so further!

3 hours ago, Patine said:

But you seem to be in denial, or perhaps trying mitigate, a lot of how the U.S. has gone downhill in many since then - and more of these ways from within than outside, I'm afraid. American society and culture is on the brink of tearing itself apart in a vicious, internal socio-political divide of the intensity

Now who's speaking in absolutes? Look, you're welcome to that opinion. What you call denial of doom, I call optimism. Six of one half a dozen of the other. We've got a lot of problems, but if people on the left complain about our country descending into hate and division they should LOOK IN THE DAMN MIRROR!! Yeah I said it, live with it. Tell me what groups of conservatives are rioting on college campuses, trying to ban liberal speakers? How many groups of Republicans are dressing up like ninjas and taking over the streets of Portland, throwing quick-dry plaster at people they disagree with? How many Republican members of Congress are openly inciting violence against members of the opposing administration, hounding them at home, chasing them out of restaurants? It must be all those conservative-run social media companies that are systematically shadow-banning liberal thought, right? Conservative speakers can't come to college campuses any more without armed security!! 99% of all the hate and violence and intolerance is coming from one side of the aisle, that's barely deniable. Yet DESPITE all the chaos, I'm a glass-half-full type. Couples will fight even in the best of marriages, and I still believe in the fundamental goodness of my country despite any unrest. I will NOT walk that back, and I don't believe things really are as bad as you're saying, it's all hype being generated by the media and the Democrats (but I repeat myself).

 

3 hours ago, Patine said:

The United States apparati of governance have become thoroughly and utterly corrupt, self-serving, and lacking a lot of simple transparency and accountability

Now there I agree with you, but I'm not worried. I'm sure that Bill Barr will get to the bottom of the illegal scheme to utilize the intelligence community to spy on Trump's campaign and ruin his Presidency with fake "crimes." So it's all good. I assume that's what you're referring to, right?

3 hours ago, Patine said:

Of course, because the electoral system is thoroughly rigged,

Citation needed.

3 hours ago, Patine said:

And, in this, I mean BOTH major parties are acting in these inappropriate ways and betraying the trust - there's not one that has a better record of integrity on this issue than other. Of course, because the electoral system is thoroughly rigged, one or other of these two PARITES OF CRIMINALS AND TRAITORS TO THEIR OWN PEOPLE AND NATION - and yes, I'm going to say that - cannot lose power, because EVERYONE knows it's near impossible, and very rare, for a "Third Party or independent" (even a single throwaway, dismissive, term to lump ALL non-Duopoly "dissidents" into) to win

Here I actually do sincerely agree with you, though I will point out that you accuse me of speaking in absolutes and then you use phrases like "EVERYONE knows". I do sense however that you're roundabout referring to the Electoral College. That is here to stay and it's a damn good thing. It does exactly what the Founders intended and far from being outdated, quite the opposite - it's needed now more than ever. I've opined on that many times and will not repeat myself here.

3 hours ago, Patine said:

the mega-corporate donors, and wealthy special interest groups, and big corporations in the modern day in general - the "American Capitalist Dream turned Nightmare." The abuses of corporatized culture and economics today is appalling. The 1% idea is not a myth - it is a neo-feudal consolidation of wealth, assets, usable land, resources, and sources of production into the effective hands of the very through nepotism, corruption, dirty corporate practices, and outright bribing government into cooperation - which is now effectively legal with the Supreme Court in favour of Citizens United - or more appropriately, "Plutocrats United to Screw Over the Common Citizens

Mmmmmkaaaay, so I'm going to take a wild stab here and say you don't like capitalism. This is me being shocked. 😴

I basically stopped reading at this point, as the rest of your post is just a rant about how unfair everything is, corporations are bad and evil, making money is wrong, blah blah blah, everyone should just give up all their money and private possessions and we'll all live in our little communist utopia. Patine, I have to say this, I truly, honestly feel sorry for you that you're so jaded by our capitalist system that all you can do is tear it down. Socialism is nothing more than jealousy and greed. And "Democratic" socialism is merely another means to the same end - the loss of personal and economic freedom. Whoa, did I just call socialism greedier than capitalism? Hell yes! After all, who is more greedy, the person who works hard and wants to keep the fruits of his/her labor, or the person who thinks they're entitled to money they didn't earn just because the other person has more than him?

You're missing the point that what's great about America is that ANYONE CAN JOIN THE 1% IF THEY WANT TO AND ARE WILLING TO WORK FOR IT. That's what I'm trying to do. Will I succeed? Who knows? But I'm not going to make excuses for my bad circumstances, I'm trying to improve them for myself. And I'm not going to let the media tell me that every one of my problems are someone else's fault. It's the patriarchy, it's the 1%, it's the corporations. Enough with the excuses! No other nation has provided so many opportunities for so many people. How many other countries can you say that about? White, black, male, female, gay, straight, Christian, Jew, Muslim or atheist, there's ample opportunity for everyone. Capitalism is the ONLY system that's EVER brought large groups of people out of poverty. That's a fact. You cannot give me any counter-examples to that. And don't say Norway. We have the middle class and a 40-hour work week not because of unions, but because of the industrial revolution making fewer man-hours necessary, and the free market allowing people to freely sell their goods and labor.

If you still can't see why we're the greatest, I can only say I sincerely pity you. I would invite you to spend some time touring abroad - Europe, Asia, South America, then come back here and see if you feel the same.

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