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HonestAbe

Two divisive topics compromise poll

Which Compromise would you accept?  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Which compromise would you sign up for on these two divisive topics?

    • Abortion becomes illegal, but so does gun ownership
      7
    • Abortion becomes permanently legal without restriction, but gun control laws are wiped away
      13


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1 hour ago, HonestAbe said:

I always find it interesting to see the results of these what-if type of scenarios

Neither, because I believe that we can accomplish victory on both.

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Neither are central issues to me. 

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52 minutes ago, Reagan04 said:

Neither, because I believe that we can accomplish victory on both.

Same.  Both abortion and gun control are unjust, and I wouldn't sign something advancing either cause.

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Abortion is already permanently legal, pending a Constitutional Amendment that would never happen.  This was decided in a little-known Supreme Court case referred to by the most advanced legal scholars as "Roe v. Wade."

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3 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Abortion is already permanently legal, pending a Constitutional Amendment that would never happen.  This was decided in a little-known Supreme Court case referred to by the most advanced legal scholars as "Roe v. Wade."

Which was overturned and amended by a little-known Supreme Court case referred to by the most advanced legal scholars as "Casey v. Planned Parenthood".

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This wasn't designed to be an easy question guys, that's the whole point of the exercise.  I was hoping to do a whole series of these types of questions.  

Many of our hardest moments in American history have been solved through compromise begrudgingly.  I figured I'd start with a bang (no pun intended either way) and see what the mood was on this hard, and obviously unrealistic scenario.  

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Just now, HonestAbe said:

This wasn't designed to be an easy question guys, that's the whole point of the exercise.  I was hoping to do a whole series of these types of questions.  

Many of our hardest moments in American history have been solved through compromise begrudgingly.  I figured I'd start with a bang (no pun intended either way) and see what the mood was on this hard, and obviously unrealistic scenario.  

Alright, I'll play your game and answer the impossible.

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1 hour ago, Reagan04 said:

Which was overturned and amended by a little-known Supreme Court case referred to by the most advanced legal scholars as "Casey v. Planned Parenthood".

Which affirmed that abortion is legal, only updating at which week a fetus (on average) becomes viable in keeping up with modern science.

Casey v. Planned Parenthood was decided 27 years ago.  If the outcome had made abortion illegal, I think we would have noticed by now.

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The compromise I would offer for the original question might be to keep all abortion and gun laws right where they are.  I'd be willing to move past both arguments, as a nation, at the status quo and move on to other topics.

But I can't support completely outlawing abortion, and I can't support completely removing all gun control laws.  

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3 minutes ago, Actinguy said:

Which affirmed that abortion is legal, only updating at which week a fetus (on average) becomes viable in keeping up with modern science.

Casey v. Planned Parenthood was decided 27 years ago.  If the outcome had made abortion illegal, I think we would have noticed by now.

But also affirming that this is not a settled precedent or issue. It's still an open question as science progresses and how we view the personhood clause. 

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11 minutes ago, Reagan04 said:

But also affirming that this is not a settled precedent or issue. It's still an open question as science progresses and how we view the personhood clause. 

I'm curious what concessions you would make to liberals and progressives on other issues in order to pass an abortion bill that bans all abortion except in the case of rape or likely death of the mother. 

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13 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I'm curious what concessions you would make to liberals and progressives on other issues in order to pass an abortion bill that bans all abortion except in the case of rape or likely death of the mother. 

vcczar is getting the gist of this thread now.  What would you be willing to give that's very high on your list, for something at the top of your list.  

 

Do conservatives care more for the lives of the unborn or guns to prevent government tyranny.

Do Liberals care more about a woman's choice, or eliminating the violence that comes with high gun ownership rates in America.

 

It's easy to choose a platform, and support it through and through, but have you thought enough internally about yourself to make honest value judgements about said platform.  Hard but valuable for an individual and a society.  

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36 minutes ago, HonestAbe said:

vcczar is getting the gist of this thread now.  What would you be willing to give that's very high on your list, for something at the top of your list.  

 

Do conservatives care more for the lives of the unborn or guns to prevent government tyranny.

Do Liberals care more about a woman's choice, or eliminating the violence that comes with high gun ownership rates in America.

 

It's easy to choose a platform, and support it through and through, but have you thought enough internally about yourself to make honest value judgements about said platform.  Hard but valuable for an individual and a society.  

I think the questions should have been among similars. Would you accept an abortion ban in exchange for universal single payer healthcare and a guaranteed minimum income? The latter two would allow about anyone to afford a child if they or a spouse works in addition to these. Would you accept no restrictions on guns in exchange for completely open borders and an amendment banning military involvement overseas except in response to an attack on US soil? Alternatively, would  you accept no restriction on guns in exchange for banning all bullets? 

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1 hour ago, vcczar said:

I'm curious what concessions you would make to liberals and progressives on other issues in order to pass an abortion bill that bans all abortion except in the case of rape or likely death of the mother. 

Well, as you know, I do not believe in the rape exception and Maternal Death is an interesting medical concept more than a political one that I view as a different debate entirely.

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1 hour ago, HonestAbe said:

eliminating the violence that comes with high gun ownership rates in America.

Most crime is caused by poverty, not access to guns, and so eliminating guns, won't make crime go down.

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2 hours ago, Reagan04 said:

Well, as you know, I do not believe in the rape exception and Maternal Death is an interesting medical concept more than a political one that I view as a different debate entirely.

Ok what concessions would you make if it is an absolute abortion ban? What is the most progressive bill you are willing to sign in exchange for this?

On another note, what compensation would a rape victim get for being forced to carry her rapist’s child, especially if the rapist has no money, is unhireable, incarcerated or deceased and can’t pay child support or compensation? 

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21 hours ago, vcczar said:

Ok what concessions would you make if it is an absolute abortion ban? What is the most progressive bill you are willing to sign in exchange for this?

On another note, what compensation would a rape victim get for being forced to carry her rapist’s child, especially if the rapist has no money, is unhireable, incarcerated or deceased and can’t pay child support or compensation? 

Still interested in what @Reagan04 says

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Like it or not (I don't) Roe V. Wade will 100% be overturned in our lifetimes. With a right leaning Supreme Court, and two left-leaning Judges due to pass away in the next few years, the Trump Court will decide policy for the next 100 years (not an exaggeration). But right now, this would have Trump with 4 new judges that are in his honeymoon stage, and I know for a fact Thomas wants to repeal Roe (there could be more right-leaning judges vocal about overturning it, @Reagan04 would prob know more than I would), so that gives at least five judges who I am 99% sure would overturn Roe if Trump wanted.

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41 minutes ago, ThePotatoWalrus said:

Like it or not (I don't) Roe V. Wade will 100% be overturned in our lifetimes. With a right leaning Supreme Court, and two left-leaning Judges due to pass away in the next few years, the Trump Court will decide policy for the next 100 years (not an exaggeration). But right now, this would have Trump with 4 new judges that are in his honeymoon stage, and I know for a fact Thomas wants to repeal Roe (there could be more right-leaning judges vocal about overturning it, @Reagan04 would prob know more than I would), so that gives at least five judges who I am 99% sure would overturn Roe if Trump wanted.

Without going into detail on my specific opinions, the reactionary far-right-wing political and social revival we're seeing in the U.S. and other countries today is NOT the wave of the future in the long-term (I knowing looking at the long-term is a weak point of most on these forums, as well as post socio-political ideologues, pundits, politicians, parties, and governments in the world, except maybe that of China), but is obviously the death throes of a great dying beast.

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40 minutes ago, Patine said:

Without going into detail on my specific opinions, the reactionary far-right-wing political and social revival we're seeing in the U.S. and other countries today is NOT the wave of the future in the long-term (I knowing looking at the long-term is a weak point of most on these forums, as well as post socio-political ideologues, pundits, politicians, parties, and governments in the world, except maybe that of China), but is obviously the death throes of a great dying beast.

I know its tempting to respond to his bullshit, but try to stay strong and fight that urge, it does you good if you do.

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6 minutes ago, Reagan04 said:

I know its tempting to respond to his bullshit, but try to stay strong and fight that urge, it does you good if you do.

I know @ThePotatoWalrus is a provocateur at heart. That's why my statement was purposefully overly general and oblique. I'm not going into debate with him, however.

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