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Just now, NYrepublican said:

Oh you want to start about the Bible and war. Deuteronomy:20:10-15 hardly condemns nuclear weapons or anything close. Just sayin'.

It's not WAR I'm talking about. War is as old as human society. It's NUCLEAR WEAPONS!

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Just now, Patine said:

It's not WAR I'm talking about. War is as old as human society. It's NUCLEAR WEAPONS!

Well pardon me for assuming you're making your inferences from bible verses about war.

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5 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Well pardon me for assuming you're making your inferences from bible verses about war.

Bible verses about war would be far too general, and not applicable to the point I'm making. Biblical verses about God's sovereignty over His Creation and unnatural and blasphemous ways to defile it (usually in Scripture written in the day restricted to witchcraft and sorcery, because greater such violations were not known to even be possible in the days of those writing) would be much more applicable, I think, at least in my opinion, which I backed up in colourful, creative text in my earlier posts this evening as to why I feel strongly nuclear fission fits in this category.

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9 minutes ago, Patine said:

It is different. It lacks the greatest benefits of capitalism, exaggerates many of it's worst parts, and takes some almost feudal aspects, under different names and guises, into itself that capitalism lacks.

Okay, what are these benefits and flaws you speak of, and capitalism is already similar to feudalism as theirs the Capitalist class (the Bourgeoisie as Marx put it) that own the factories and take surplus value from workers, the, military and police who defend the Capitalist class, the clergy who teach religion as a way to satiate the proletariat promising a paradise after death, and then there's the Ruler class who make laws that benefit the Capitalists at the expense of the proles, and finally there's the Proletariat upon who's labor all of civilization is built, every mine and every factory, the endless miles of railroad laid, all built by proles, yet do they get to own the fruits of their labor? No! They belong to the Capitalist class for workers to slave in, all the while the Bourgeoisie make off doing none of the work but reaping all of the profit.

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Just now, WVProgressive said:

Okay, what are these benefits and flaws you speak of, and capitalism is already similar to feudalism as theirs the Capitalist class (the Bourgeoisie as Marx put it) that own the factories and take surplus value from workers, the, military and police who defend the Capitalist class, the clergy who teach religion as a way to satiate the proletariat promising a paradise after death, and then there's the Ruler class who make laws that benefit the Capitalists at the expense of the proles, and finally there's the Proletariat upon who's labor all of civilization is built, every mine and every factory, the endless miles of railroad laid, all built by proles, yet do they get to own the fruits of their labor? No! They belong to the Capitalist class for workers to slave in, all the while the Bourgeoisie make off doing none of the work but reaping all of the profit.

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It's mostly about potential upward mobility and opportunity to realistically join the wealthy bourgeoisie class, and the overt and unabashed power and privilege the bourgeoisie class exorcises on government without fearing significant consequences. The number of self-made millionaires/billionaires and successful new companies has dropped MJORLY, unless they occupy a niche market, and small "Ma-and-Pa" businesses are only very rarely viable anymore. The current ultra-wealthy elite lock-out new membership they don't approve of (or who fall outside their radar - see niche markets) much more successfully, and they sit on a lot of money rather than spending it or investing. Outsourcing has become rampant - in fact, the rule, not the exception. Goods and services have become shoddier and cheaper, and employees paid less through various loopholes and deceptively named legislations - like "right-to-work" - just to ramp up artificial profit margins. From a certain point of view, it feels like a different economic system, or at least a major echelon with noticeable difference of a broader scheme, like Communism is to Scandinavian and Latin American (except Cuban) Socialism.

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3 minutes ago, Patine said:

It's mostly about potential upward mobility and opportunity to realistically join the wealthy bourgeoisie class, and the overt and unabashed power and privilege the bourgeoisie class exorcises on government without fearing significant consequences. The number of self-made millionaires/billionaires and successful new companies has dropped MJORLY, unless they occupy a niche market, and small "Ma-and-Pa" businesses are only very rarely viable anymore. The current ultra-wealthy elite lock-out new membership they don't approve of (or who fall outside their radar - see niche markets) much more successfully, and they sit on a lot of money rather than spending it or investing. Outsourcing has become rampant - in fact, the rule, not the exception. Goods and services have become shoddier and cheaper, and employees paid less through various loopholes and deceptively named legislations - like "right-to-work" - just to ramp up artificial profit margins. From a certain point of view, it feels like a different economic system, or at least a major echelon with noticeable difference of a broader scheme, like Communism is to Scandinavian and Latin American (except Cuban) Socialism.

Capitalism is built off keeping the poor man poor and meek under the rich man's brow, of course upwards mobility is low, Capitalism is built off having massive amounts of people in work to exploit and a massive number out of work to play the role of a surplus army of labor. Capitalists will always lie to workers saying, "If you just work harder you can move up on the business ladder" they claim capitalism is human nature instead of an affront against it. They rely on workers not being paid the the true value of their labor, and the costs of making goods to go down, while price go up, and they then rely on the capitalist welfare state to prop them up and keep workers satisfied, while bosses continue to exploit them. Corporatism is merely Capitalism, Capitalism inevitable leads to the concentration of wealth into the hands of very few, it's built that way, it's not a flaw it's a feature. And the "self-made man" should rather be more aptly titled a Capitalist no capitalist would be able to sustain himself without the exploitation of labor. What I ask you created the goods that "self made man" sold to reach millionaire or billionaire status, what is the the only means to create wealth? Labor! Who's labor you might ask? Workers, workers built the factories and made the goods, built the cities where the Bourgeoisie trade, yet who gets the credit? Well, I think you already know by now...   

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22 minutes ago, WVProgressive said:

Capitalism is built off keeping the poor man poor and meek under the rich man's brow, of course upwards mobility is low, Capitalism is built off having massive amounts of people in work to exploit and a massive number out of work to play the role of a surplus army of labor. Capitalists will always lie to workers saying, "If you just work harder you can move up on the business ladder" they claim capitalism is human nature instead of an affront against it. They rely on workers not being paid the the true value of their labor, and the costs of making goods to go down, while price go up, and they then rely on the capitalist welfare state to prop them up and keep workers satisfied, while bosses continue to exploit them. Corporatism is merely Capitalism, Capitalism inevitable leads to the concentration of wealth into the hands of very few, it's built that way, it's not a flaw it's a feature. And the "self-made man" should rather be more aptly titled a Capitalist no capitalist would be able to sustain himself without the exploitation of labor. What I ask you created the goods that "self made man" sold to reach millionaire or billionaire status, what is the the only means to create wealth? Labor! Who's labor you might ask? Workers, workers built the factories and made the goods, built the cities where the Bourgeoisie trade, yet who gets the credit? Well, I think you already know by now...   

I suppose you do have a point. Like Mussolini didn't engineer "final solutions" of whole demographics, and was much more obsessed with "moral hygiene" in Italian youth, and he promoted Roman rather than Teutonic nostalgia of Antiquity to glorify in highly distorted ways, but he was as much a Fascist as Hitler, and, in fact, predated Hitler as a Fascist dictator by about a decade. Perhaps it was just specific instrumentation and intensity of what I called "corporatism" and capitalism proper" in a more superficial sense that threw me off.

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7 hours ago, Wiw said:

I literally have no idea what this thread is about now.

It's pretty much veered off topic MAJORLY, even I admit....

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14 hours ago, Patine said:

Bible verses about war would be far too general, and not applicable to the point I'm making. Biblical verses about God's sovereignty over His Creation and unnatural and blasphemous ways to defile it (usually in Scripture written in the day restricted to witchcraft and sorcery, because greater such violations were not known to even be possible in the days of those writing) would be much more applicable, I think, at least in my opinion, which I backed up in colourful, creative text in my earlier posts this evening as to why I feel strongly nuclear fission fits in this category.

So you believe that witchcraft and sorcery are legit given that you classify them as defiling nature?

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33 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

So you believe that witchcraft and sorcery are legit given that you classify them as defiling nature?

I believe that what they were believed to REPRESENT (that is, blatant violations of God's Law and Creation through unnatural processes for wicked, destructive, and vane ends), which, though practically an impossibility as a REAL feat by mortals at the time, admittedly, a lot of innocent people were accused of in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic history for ulterior motives as an "easy case" (like those falsely accused in such old communities of sodomy and such), unfortunately. But, believe humanity is now fully capable of enacting, in certain areas, the TRUE MEANING of what Scripture referred as these crimes, and on a grand scale of potential genocide and blight across God's Earth not before imagined possible, through nuclear fission and other such innovations of mass destruction.

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@NYrepublican - I'm offering to formally and flat out end this debate now (without concession by either of us or stated resolution). It's bringing out nasty attitudes and bad fellowship in both of us, like religious debates always do.

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3 hours ago, Patine said:

@NYrepublican - I'm offering to formally and flat out end this debate now (without concession by either of us or stated resolution). It's bringing out nasty attitudes and bad fellowship in both of us, like religious debates always do.

Agreed.

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