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SirLagsalott

Momentum is OP

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From my experience, momentum is simply overpowered. I've had situations where I can sit out the entire election as, say, Trump, and then play during the last 10 days exclusively campaigning in CA & NY, doing frequent rallies (especially negative ones) and interviews, and take the states and thus the election easily. Momentum definitely needs to be massively nerfed, or the AI needs to get better at handling insurgent campaigns. It's the same issue that causes third parties to randomly win or rack up high showings in states after ignoring them for ages then attacking them days before the election. One thing that might combat this regarding the AI - I noticed the AI frequently makes ads on the same subject in one day. This causes them to easily max out their momentum on an issue, burning money they shouldn't be. The AI also burns through its money too easily in general. Reducing the effects of momentum, as well as modifying the AI to better spread out its money (or work harder on fundraising), should help a lot.

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I almost agree, but had an experience playing last night where momentum actually made sense and without it would've been less realistic, or just more odd. I made a custom scenario in my hometown that was a 4-way general election, with one party/candidate being the frontrunner and the other three having chance to win but being a bit behind. The frontrunner had issue stances that were pretty out of line with many of the issue focuses in town, and so their momentum for a while really suffered (I was playing as them, so I changed their plank positions and used surrogate spin power to neutralize the negative news stories) and with new issue positions, saw my momentum begin to improve. Note: the frontrunner was further Left than most of the town (even though these were local issues, I tried to keep it organized)

In the meantime, two centrist candidates occupied spaces between center left and center right, sometimes switching with each other. And the final, and last place candidate (who had the largest committed base) was a populist and Right wing candidate, and was able to consolidate the Right wing base, but then moved to the Center (while retaining a couple of far right positions nobody else would move to.) What was most interesting, to me, was that an issue that was in this candidate's theme on the far right, he actually moved all the way to Left while the frontrunner moved from Left to Center-Right on it. This reversal was interesting because it was at this point that the right populist candidate was all the way to 2nd place but in a dead heat with the frontrunner. 

However, the populist candidate then started getting hit with scandals and losing support because his new platform didn't align as strongly with the neighborhoods he was originally strongest in. It took almost a month for the candidate to lose the momentum and support he had built, but he eventually landed back into the bottom of the pack, even being blocked from the 2nd debate because his support fell.

This was a super longwinded post, mostly because I was impressed with myself on the campaign, but I think that what I'm saying is that the momentum aspect made this game make sense, and also put a focus on Issues. Candidates, both human and AI, adjust their platforms and strategies based on the momentum, and that momentum had a slow-moving but important effect on polls and votes.

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I'm not saying it should be removed. Just reduced in effect because it causes major issues with things like US presidential elections. I can't speak for your scenario, but I wasn't aware moving positions was a thing that the AI actually did. I've never seen that happen. Maybe @admin_270 can confirm because I assumed that wasn't an action that could be done by the AI.

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I think the issue is that the game's engine is very much entirely based on momentum, so there wouldn't really be a way to reduce it. But I obviously didn't make the engine so I may be wrong!

As for the issues, I didn't think AI could either. The only reason I'm sure of it was because the candidate I had created, based on a real person in my hometown, was so prominent because he was so strongly against an override measure. So when it went from that to him being supportive-- and moving from far right to left-- I knew that something happened, and actually made some sense strategically (for a while...)

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On 10/27/2018 at 10:33 PM, SirLagsalott said:

From my experience, momentum is simply overpowered. I've had situations where I can sit out the entire election as, say, Trump, and then play during the last 10 days exclusively campaigning in CA & NY, doing frequent rallies (especially negative ones) and interviews, and take the states and thus the election easily. Momentum definitely needs to be massively nerfed, or the AI needs to get better at handling insurgent campaigns. It's the same issue that causes third parties to randomly win or rack up high showings in states after ignoring them for ages then attacking them days before the election. One thing that might combat this regarding the AI - I noticed the AI frequently makes ads on the same subject in one day. This causes them to easily max out their momentum on an issue, burning money they shouldn't be. The AI also burns through its money too easily in general. Reducing the effects of momentum, as well as modifying the AI to better spread out its money (or work harder on fundraising), should help a lot.

I really don't see what you are talking about, because I personally have noticed from my experience that momentum really doesn't make a difference.

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7 minutes ago, NYConservative said:

I really don't see what you are talking about, because I personally have noticed from my experience that momentum really doesn't make a difference. 

...What? Momentum is the main decider of the movement of polling percentages and election outcome. How does it not make a difference?

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38 minutes ago, NYConservative said:

I really don't see what you are talking about, because I personally have noticed from my experience that momentum really doesn't make a difference.

 

30 minutes ago, SirLagsalott said:

...What? Momentum is the main decider of the movement of polling percentages and election outcome. How does it not make a difference?

I think @NYConservative is phoning in his games.

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44 minutes ago, NYConservative said:

Evidence?

If you firmly and honestly believe Momentum has next to no impact in play in the same game the rest of us have all been playing, you must not be paying attention.

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Momentum is almost the only way that voter %s are changed currently. However, it generally requires a combination of both positive and negative momentum, so just having (say) positive momentum might make little to no difference in certain situations.

Yes, the AI needs to be tweaked to better respond to novel campaign strategies, and this is noted.

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On 11/2/2018 at 5:52 PM, Patine said:

If you firmly and honestly believe Momentum has next to no impact in play in the same game the rest of us have all been playing, you must not be paying attention.

Mate, i can literally send you a video of me testing this, by making an endorser who gives +3000 momentum, and it literally boosted about 0.9% vote across the nation.

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58 minutes ago, NYConservative said:

Mate, i can literally send you a video of me testing this, by making an endorser who gives +3000 momentum, and it literally boosted about 0.9% vote across the nation.

That’s because momentum is capped. Not to mention that the theoretical candidate getting this endorsement can only win over undecideds with positive momentum and needs to use negative momentum to take support away from other candidates. And if momentum doesn’t make any difference... what do you think does, exactly?

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Momentum generally has zero affect in PI for me, PMI though.... that's another case. Make a few billboard ads, let them run and you'll win in a literal landslide. I think that billboard ads should be decreased in power or atleast give less momentum. 

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13 hours ago, SirLagsalott said:

That’s because momentum is capped. Not to mention that the theoretical candidate getting this endorsement can only win over undecideds with positive momentum and needs to use negative momentum to take support away from other candidates. And if momentum doesn’t make any difference... what do you think does, exactly?

I didn't say it didn't make any difference, I said you are being overly dramatic about the affects of momentum. It does help with percentages and votes, as it should.

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Endorser momentum is capped at +- 2. Giving a value of +3000 is no different from a value of +2. If you got a 0.9% shift out of a maximal endorsement boost, that sounds about right.

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3 hours ago, wolves said:

Momentum generally has zero affect in PI for me, PMI though.... that's another case. Make a few billboard ads, let them run and you'll win in a literal landslide. I think that billboard ads should be decreased in power or atleast give less momentum. 

Same here, PI it doesn't do for me, I only played one PMI round with a friend and that happened for me.

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Just now, admin_270 said:

Endorser momentum is capped at +- 2. Giving a value of +3000 is no different from a value of +2. If you got a 0.9% shift out of a maximal endorsement boost, that sounds about right.

Yes, but all the endorsers were at that, so that would add about to about a +219.

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Momentum doesn't work like that. There is a maximum momentum effect for each endorser, but there is also a maximum momentum effect per issue.

You can have at most +2 momentum for a given issue (which is why endorser momentum is capped at +2), which is then multiplied by that issue's profile. If it's a Very High profile, the effect is 2*4 = 8. So getting 2 endorsements on the same issue, where each has the maximal momentum value of +2, will be the same as getting one, as far as direct momentum effects are concerned.

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30 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Momentum doesn't work like that. There is a maximum momentum effect for each endorser, but there is also a maximum momentum effect per issue.

You can have at most +2 momentum for a given issue (which is why endorser momentum is capped at +2), which is then multiplied by that issue's profile. If it's a Very High profile, the effect is 2*4 = 8. So getting 2 endorsements on the same issue, where each has the maximal momentum value of +2, will be the same as getting one, as far as direct momentum effects are concerned.

Again, your assuming I'm dumb and avoided these points. none of them are really on the same issue if on an issue at all and not on a general position. You are making assumptions of what I did and didn't do which really, is not helping your point.

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@NYConservative

I'm trying to explain the game dynamics to you and anyone else who's interested and reading this thread.

You're saying you had over 100 endorsers all giving +2 momentum bonuses? If it's a general issue momentum bonus, an issue will be picked at random by the game engine. So, unless you have a huge number of issues, there is going to be significant overlap in the bonuses. By all means, fill me in on the details of the experiment you did - perhaps you've stumbled onto a bug in the game engine which I'm not aware of.

Also remember that positive momentum in itself is often insufficient to move voters - you need both positive and negative in many situations.

So if you had a situation where you had a bunch of endorsers, and it didn't shift the needle much (maybe 1%), that's explainable by multiple aspects of how momentum works in the game.

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1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

@NYConservative

I'm trying to explain the game dynamics to you and anyone else who's interested and reading this thread.

You're saying you had over 100 endorsers all giving +2 momentum bonuses? If it's a general issue momentum bonus, an issue will be picked at random by the game engine. So, unless you have a huge number of issues, there is going to be significant overlap in the bonuses. By all means, fill me in on the details of the experiment you did - perhaps you've stumbled onto a bug in the game engine which I'm not aware of.

Also remember that positive momentum in itself is often insufficient to move voters - you need both positive and negative in many situations.

So if you had a situation where you had a bunch of endorsers, and it didn't shift the needle much (maybe 1%), that's explainable by multiple aspects of how momentum works in the game.

Ok, Here's details: 
131 issues. 131 endorsers (none were generalized) 
+2 momentum bonuses to Test Party 1 across all endorsers
-2 momentum to Test Party 2 across all endorsers.
(found out by having the original be 219 issues and 219 endorsers, i overloaded the system of both my PC and the game so I had to reboot my pc, very fun experience)
Total Results (keep note: momentum did decrease overtime, as natural.) 
+262 Momentum for Test Party 1 at March 15th, 2018 (the time of the endorsement)
-262 Momentum for Test Party 2 at March 15th, 2018. 
All regions (states) population were set directly at 50% Test Party 1, 50% Test Party 2.
Player Parties: Test party 1, test party 2.
No 3rd, 4th 5th or beyond parties.
No electoral votes.
By election day: 51.4% Test Party 1, 49.6% Test Party 2.
Forced Turnout: 100.0%
Population (auto set 2016 US Population)
Foot Notes: If you want more details, I will give more. Also, since you mentioned the cap I quickly did up a +30000000000 endorser, as the only endorser, and Test Party 1 got that endorser in that other scenario, and it gave a "+30000000000" momentum boost, So your cap is also not working, at least not in the 1. 2.7.2 version, and 2.8.2 test version.

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On 11/15/2018 at 3:02 PM, admin_270 said:

Also, what do you mean by " it gave a "+30000000000" momentum boost"?

It literally gave +300000000000 momentum.

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