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vcczar

Conclave Infinity: Map Needed

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I'm thinking about making a papal election scenario (at least the 1978-present scenarios). I need someone (hopefully @NYrepublican) to make the map for me and I'll do the rest of the scenario. 

Basically, I need a world map broken down into the following regions:

  • Eastern Europe (Former Soviet bloc countries minus Poland + Balkans + European part of Russia)
  • Austria
  • Poland
  • Switzerland
  • Sub-Saharan Africa
  • South American (minus Brazil)
  • Brazil
  • Central America + Caribbean 
  • Mexico
  • Canada
  • United States
  • Australia + New Zealand + Papua New Guinea 
  • Indian Subcontinent (India + Pakistan
  • Great Britain
  • Ireland
  • Northern Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, and Scandinavia) 
  • South East Asia (China + Japan + South Korea + Indonesia + Laos+ Malaysia+Philippines, etc.) 
  • France
  • Germany
  • Spain + Portugal
  • Northern Africa + Middle East
  • Italy

Alternatively, if it is easier, it needn't be a world map. It could be a map that looks like a Conclave with tables and/or chairs that are used as regions instead of a map used as a region. It would suppose that Cardinals are sitting with their fellow region's cardinals, similar to how the Founding Fathers sat with their fellow state Congressmen at Independence Hall. I'm not sure if Cardinals sat in regions actually, but it could be used for the game if a map proves too difficult. 

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7 minutes ago, vcczar said:

I'm thinking about making a papal election scenario (at least the 1978-present scenarios). I need someone (hopefully @NYrepublican) to make the map for me and I'll do the rest of the scenario. 

Basically, I need a world map broken down into the following regions:

  • Eastern Europe (Former Soviet bloc countries minus Poland + Balkans + European part of Russia)
  • Austria
  • Poland
  • Switzerland
  • Sub-Saharan Africa
  • South American (minus Brazil)
  • Brazil
  • Central America + Caribbean 
  • Mexico
  • Canada
  • United States
  • Australia + New Zealand + Papua New Guinea 
  • Indian Subcontinent (India + Pakistan
  • Great Britain
  • Ireland
  • Northern Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, and Scandinavia) 
  • South East Asia (China + Japan + South Korea + Indonesia + Laos+ Malaysia+Philippines, etc.) 
  • France
  • Germany
  • Spain + Portugal
  • Northern Africa + Middle East
  • Italy

Alternatively, if it is easier, it needn't be a world map. It could be a map that looks like a Conclave with tables and/or chairs that are used as regions instead of a map used as a region. It would suppose that Cardinals are sitting with their fellow region's cardinals, similar to how the Founding Fathers sat with their fellow state Congressmen at Independence Hall. I'm not sure if Cardinals sat in regions actually, but it could be used for the game if a map proves too difficult. 

That would be a very tricky map. Also, Sub-Saharan Africa should be subdivided a bit. The DRC, the nation in the world with the 10th-highest population of Roman Catholics in the world (by counted number, not percentage) and Nigeria, should each be their own region, and Southern Africa and East Africa, which are much more heavily, should be separated from the much more heavily-Moslem (and Oriental Orthodox Christian) West Africa and the Horn of Africa (and probably East and Southern Africa from each other), and the southern coastal parts of West Africa, also much more heavily Christian) separate from the Sahelian and Saharan parts. Also, the Vatican itself should be separate from Italy perhaps in an inset.

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10 minutes ago, Patine said:

That would be a very tricky map. Also, Sub-Saharan Africa should be subdivided a bit. The DRC, the nation in the world with the 10th-highest population of Roman Catholics in the world (by counted number, not percentage) and Nigeria, should each be their own region, and Southern Africa and East Africa, which are much more heavily, should be separated from the much more heavily-Moslem (and Oriental Orthodox Christian) West Africa and the Horn of Africa (and probably East and Southern Africa from each other), and the southern coastal parts of West Africa, also much more heavily Christian) separate from the Sahelian and Saharan parts. Also, the Vatican itself should be separate from Italy perhaps in an inset.

That's probably true. Ideally, I want no more than 20 regions, so however that can be best delineated. 

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23 hours ago, vcczar said:

I'm thinking about making a papal election scenario (at least the 1978-present scenarios). I need someone (hopefully @NYrepublican) to make the map for me and I'll do the rest of the scenario. 

Basically, I need a world map broken down into the following regions:

  • Eastern Europe (Former Soviet bloc countries minus Poland + Balkans + European part of Russia)
  • Austria
  • Poland
  • Switzerland
  • Sub-Saharan Africa
  • South American (minus Brazil)
  • Brazil
  • Central America + Caribbean 
  • Mexico
  • Canada
  • United States
  • Australia + New Zealand + Papua New Guinea 
  • Indian Subcontinent (India + Pakistan
  • Great Britain
  • Ireland
  • Northern Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, and Scandinavia) 
  • South East Asia (China + Japan + South Korea + Indonesia + Laos+ Malaysia+Philippines, etc.) 
  • France
  • Germany
  • Spain + Portugal
  • Northern Africa + Middle East
  • Italy

Alternatively, if it is easier, it needn't be a world map. It could be a map that looks like a Conclave with tables and/or chairs that are used as regions instead of a map used as a region. It would suppose that Cardinals are sitting with their fellow region's cardinals, similar to how the Founding Fathers sat with their fellow state Congressmen at Independence Hall. I'm not sure if Cardinals sat in regions actually, but it could be used for the game if a map proves too difficult. 

I'll try to make it from a world map @Patine sent me a while back.

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17 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

I'll try to make it from a world map @Patine sent me a while back.

Thanks!

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@vcczar What should I do for the Azerbaijan area?

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14 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

@vcczar What should I do for the Azerbaijan area?

I guess include it with India and Iran, and the rest of the "'Stans", and call it Central Asia. 

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1 minute ago, vcczar said:

I guess include it with India and Iran, and the rest of the "'Stans", and call it Central Asia. 

Also what about mongolia? Should I include it in Russia or China?

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41 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Also what about mongolia? Should I include it in Russia or China?

Include Mongolia with China. Thanks for asking. 

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1 minute ago, vcczar said:

Include Mongolia with China. Thanks for asking. 

conclave.bmp

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28 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Looks great! I'll let you know if there are any issues. I'll do Conclave Infinity after the 1874 British election

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@vcczar How will you get Data and such for the scenario?

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58 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

@vcczar How will you get Data and such for the scenario?

There have been some leaked ballot numbers for every Conclave since Pope John Paul I was elected in 1978. The rest will be guesses. You can usually tell who is more likely to vote for who---because of region, ideology, etc. 

There's an offchance that we may need to make an inset map for Italy, and break it down into North, South, and Central Italy, since they have so many cardinals. Hopefully, this can be avoided. 

Another option is to have circles or squares equal to the number of cardinal electors, which would be more accurate, but it would make it even more hypothetical, and require more research, but it might be a more fun game this way. Or if we can make the circles and squares look like cardinals. We would need anywhere between 100 to 120 of these, since that's about how many Cardinal Electors there usually are. 

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1 hour ago, vcczar said:

There have been some leaked ballot numbers for every Conclave since Pope John Paul I was elected in 1978. The rest will be guesses. You can usually tell who is more likely to vote for who---because of region, ideology, etc. 

There's an offchance that we may need to make an inset map for Italy, and break it down into North, South, and Central Italy, since they have so many cardinals. Hopefully, this can be avoided. 

Another option is to have circles or squares equal to the number of cardinal electors, which would be more accurate, but it would make it even more hypothetical, and require more research, but it might be a more fun game this way. Or if we can make the circles and squares look like cardinals. We would need anywhere between 100 to 120 of these, since that's about how many Cardinal Electors there usually are. 

The problem is that Papal Conclaves are usually more like Democratic National Conventions in the 1920's. They go in with clear frontrunners, them whittle through tens to even over a hundred ballots, some very obscure candidates get mulled over, the frontrunners suggest proxies, realizing they won't get elected in their own right, and then a 'dark horse' compromise candidate usually gets elected in the end. Most 20th and 21st Century Conclaves, except probably the one that elected Benedict XVI, which was very different, were believed to be like that.

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51 minutes ago, Patine said:

The problem is that Papal Conclaves are usually more like Democratic National Conventions in the 1920's. They go in with clear frontrunners, them whittle through tens to even over a hundred ballots, some very obscure candidates get mulled over, the frontrunners suggest proxies, realizing they won't get elected in their own right, and then a 'dark horse' compromise candidate usually gets elected in the end. Most 20th and 21st Century Conclaves, except probably the one that elected Benedict XVI, which was very different, were believed to be like that.

Yeah, the game would end with a Convention like ballot. Your goal would be to build momentum and support leading into the Conclave (Convention). It would start with the death or resignation of a Pope. 

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2 hours ago, vcczar said:

There have been some leaked ballot numbers for every Conclave since Pope John Paul I was elected in 1978.

There have? I only saw the one for Benedict's, I think.

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1 hour ago, Caprice said:

There have? I only saw the one for Benedict's, I think.

They exist. Someone wrote a book with the leaks. I read the book. 

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20 hours ago, NYrepublican said:

I can't help but notice you completely ignored utterly every one of my suggestions and guidelines as though they meant nothing and weren't even brought up...

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11 minutes ago, Patine said:

I can't help but notice you completely ignored utterly every one of my suggestions and guidelines as though they meant nothing and weren't even brought up...

Guidelines where exactly? I don't read every post in full.

 

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11 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Guidelines where exactly? I don't read every post in full.

 

These ones.

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 7:21 PM, Patine said:

That would be a very tricky map. Also, Sub-Saharan Africa should be subdivided a bit. The DRC, the nation in the world with the 10th-highest population of Roman Catholics in the world (by counted number, not percentage) and Nigeria, should each be their own region, and Southern Africa and East Africa, which are much more heavily, should be separated from the much more heavily-Moslem (and Oriental Orthodox Christian) West Africa and the Horn of Africa (and probably East and Southern Africa from each other), and the southern coastal parts of West Africa, also much more heavily Christian) separate from the Sahelian and Saharan parts. Also, the Vatican itself should be separate from Italy perhaps in an inset.

 

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37 minutes ago, Patine said:

These ones.

 

I was just following @vcczar's recommendations. If he so wishes to add those regions I'll add them.

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15 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

I was just following @vcczar's recommendations. If he so wishes to add those regions I'll add them.

Looking at the papal electors for 1978-2013, I have to deviate from Patine's great suggestions somewhat. I could see a divide of:

  • Divide Sub-Saharan Africa into Sub-Saharan-African and South Africa (basically present day boundary of South Africa). One could divide Africa further along the line Patine suggests, but the number of cardinal electors are too few to divide it further. 
  • Make an inset of Italy, and divide it into three regions. See this map: italy-regions-map.jpg
  •  

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31 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Looking at the papal electors for 1978-2013, I have to deviate from Patine's great suggestions somewhat. I could see a divide of:

  • Divide Sub-Saharan Africa into Sub-Saharan-African and South Africa (basically present day boundary of South Africa). One could divide Africa further along the line Patine suggests, but the number of cardinal electors are too few to divide it further. 
  • Make an inset of Italy, and divide it into three regions. See this map: italy-regions-map.jpg
  •  

conclave.bmp

Here you go @vcczar, the updated map.

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1 hour ago, NYrepublican said:

conclave.bmp

Here you go @vcczar, the updated map.

Thanks!

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