Jump to content
270soft Forum
DebateGod

I am legitimate

Recommended Posts

@admin_270 I am a legitimate user. I am having doubts and dont want to publicly express it to anyone and hence wish to remain anonymous.

Hope that clears it up (I had no way of messaging you besides this)

I'm also unrelated to that crazy ass "SoldierofGod " guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lmao I doubt you're unrelated lmao. This is not a religion forum so can you please leave and do this elsewhere?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

How does posting a poll on that question help you re having doubts about God's existence?

I was trying to get a sense of the community here. I figured if there's a heavy bias towards 1 or 7 on the dawkins scale it is not a place i can have a reasonable discussion Also to answer @ThePotatoWalrus on religion forums I tend to get called an amoral hedonist for expressing these doubts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

@DebateGod

These sorts of threads are off-topic, but you can have this thread to ask people any questions you might have.

That seems like a surprisingly reasonable compromise 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

@DebateGod

These sorts of threads are off-topic, but you can have this thread to ask people any questions you might have.

Thank you Anthony

1) Problem of evil

I did my homework and saw a number of answers, my questions in bold

1-It's for the greater good. God couldn't think of a way to do that that doesn't involve torturing people

2-Evil is God's love. This just makes God sound sadistic and definitely not a deity worth worshipping

3-Evil is needed to appreciate the good. Do you need to have lived in a run-down hut to appreciate living in a middle class house? That argument is not true

4-People's sins and/or parent's/other ancestors sin - What kind of justice blames people's bad lots on this? It's essentially akin to telling someone who's in the hospital from an attempted murder "You deserved it"

5-Evil is necessary for free will - If heaven is all good do people not have free will there? Also what does infant mortality,ebola et al have to do with this

6- The devil did it - Is God incapable of stopping the devil also who created the devil exactly?

7-Evil is only in this world in Heaven it's all good - So it's reasonable to steal all of someone's money and say you'll be rich in 5 years?

8-God is always justified - By that logic parents can sell their children since after all they're responsible for their existence

If someone has a better answer or thinks i'm mistaken please tell me

2)Severe flaws in proofs of God (just some problematic ones I found)

Argument from Morality - Even if true which is doubtful it's a non sequitur that thus God exists

Pascal's wager - There's alot to lose in way of investment with an uncertain return

Miracles -God of the Gaps fallacy

Design argument - The universe is disorderly,not the mark of a creator

Ontological argument- "that which none greater can be conceived" is all encompassing thus not proving that it exists.

First cause -  Leads to infinite regression, If God doesn't need a cause why can't the universe not have a cause.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@DebateGod

1. The problem of evil.

Jesus assumes there's suffering in the world. A basic premise of Christianity is that suffering exists. The point of Christianity is to offer a response - that is, what to do about it. So, feed the hungry, clothe the poor, forgive, and so on.

The problem of evil gets things backwards. The existence of evil isn't something Christianity is supposed to explain away. Jesus didn't see an inconsistency in the existence of God and the existence of evil. Rather, he outlined an action plan to remove it.

The problem of evil comes about by thinking too abstractly about these sorts of things, and probably buying into bad theology. However, the standard response is that evil comes from free will (both humans and angels), and that God is radically limited because of the gift of free will, and all the consequences of it. So 5. and 6. are the bulk of the standard answers.

For 5., people in Heaven have free will, but have freely chosen to align their wills with God. In a sense, Heaven definitionally just is being in alignment with God's will. Anywhere that obtains, that is the Kingdom of God.

For 6., yes - practically speaking, God can't stop the devil while also giving him genuine free will.

Again, I think this sort of reasoning is too abstract, and the wrong way to go about engaging with the possibility of something like God's existence, but FWIW.

2. Flaws in proofs for God's existence.

Jesus never argues for the existence of God. Nor does it seem he depended on proofs like these to know God existed. Rather, he probably had an intuitive connection to (what he called) God. I think any abstract argument like this is bound to at best be suggestive. The best 'proof' of God is a lived, ongoing relationship with Him. That's complex, and involves many kinds of experiences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

God is radically limited because of the gift of free will

So would you agree then that God (the christian God in this example) is not omnipotent as he is described in the bible?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@admin_270 Well there is an issue with the free-will argument (at least as it applies to humans). Namely in that Definitive knowledge of harm doesn't fully deter behavior. One example would be druggies. Most know they're basically killing themselves but do it anyway because "carpe diem". I struggle to see how God revealing himself would thus completely destroy free will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, WVProgressive said:

So would you agree then that God (the christian God in this example) is not omnipotent as he is described in the bible?

Most Christian theology describes God's power as being radically limited, usually as a result of Him granting free will. There are complex theological discussions about whether this can be so and God still be 'omnipotent', but they miss the basic point that, regardless, practically He is therefore in certain ways limited.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, DebateGod said:

@admin_270 Well there is an issue with the free-will argument (at least as it applies to humans). Namely in that Definitive knowledge of harm doesn't fully deter behavior. One example would be druggies. Most know they're basically killing themselves but do it anyway because "carpe diem". I struggle to see how God revealing himself would thus completely destroy free will.

What do you mean by 'God revealing himself'? The point with free will is that humans have autonomy, and so can do things that are bad as a result of that autonomy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Caprice said:

What's the Dawkins scale?

A test dawkins devised for testing how strong someone's belief in god is ranking from 1- Absolutely sure to 7 - Absolute disbelief.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, DebateGod said:

@admin_270 Well there is an issue with the free-will argument (at least as it applies to humans). Namely in that Definitive knowledge of harm doesn't fully deter behavior. One example would be druggies. Most know they're basically killing themselves but do it anyway because "carpe diem". I struggle to see how God revealing himself would thus completely destroy free will.

There's also natural evil, humans don't cause floods, birth defects, or any other natural disaster, so which calls into question; if God is omnibenevolent then why wold he allow these things to exist? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, NYrepublican said:

A test dawkins devised for testing how strong someone's belief in god is ranking from 1- Absolutely sure to 7 - Absolute disbelief.

Ah. In which case, I would probably be a low 6.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

What do you mean by 'God revealing himself'? The point with free will is that humans have autonomy, and so can do things that are bad as a result of that autonomy.

I mean if everyone knew that God existed i.e even without free will as we understand it, it wouldn't eliminate the ability to do evil as people would rationalize it. For example, crime isn't significantly lower in more religious societies (I believe -0.12% or so well within the margin of error for that study)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, WVProgressive said:

There's also natural evil, humans don't cause floods, birth defects, or any other natural disaster, so which calls into question; if God is omnibenevolent then why wold he allow these things to exist? 

The point of Christianity is not to pretend bad things don't happen, but respond to them. Yes, I think classical omnipotence and omnibenevolence have problems when you cash things out, but the concept of 'God' doesn't require both those things.

As far as explaining why these things exist, there are all sorts of reasons typically given. Consider a birth defect, such as being born blind. Is that a bad thing? Well, it depends. You can take a weakness and, because of it, make your life better than it otherwise would be. So the bad thing becomes a good thing, in the end.

If someone dies, is that a bad thing? Well, if they go into the presence of God, maybe it's not. It's tough for us, because of our limited understanding, but maybe it's not a bad thing if we knew all.

There are all sorts of ways to respond to this, but in the end, I think basing one's belief in the existence or non-existence of God on an abstract theological question like this to be misguided.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, DebateGod said:

I mean if everyone knew that God existed i.e even without free will as we understand it, it wouldn't eliminate the ability to do evil as people would rationalize it. For example, crime isn't significantly lower in more religious societies (I believe -0.12% or so well within the margin of error for that study)

Are you saying belief in the existence of God doesn't entail moral behavior? Of course not! Satan believed God existed, my dear man!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

The point of Christianity is not to pretend bad things don't happen, but respond to them. Yes, I think classical omnipotence and omnibenevolence have problems when you cash things out, but the concept of 'God' doesn't require both those things.

In Abrahamic religion,less than tri-omni is basically heresy.

 

2 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

As far as explaining why these things exist, there are all sorts of reasons typically given. Consider a birth defect, such as being born blind. Is that a bad thing? Well, it depends. You can take a weakness and, because of it, make your life better than it otherwise would be. So the bad thing becomes a good thing, in the end.

Not necessarily,blindness isn't necessarily a good thing regardless of what you do with it.

2 minutes ago, admin_270 said:

Are you saying belief in the existence of God doesn't entail moral behavior? Of course not! Satan believed God existed, my dear man!

I specifically said I was talking about solely humans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

The point of Christianity is not to pretend bad things don't happen, but respond to them. Yes, I think classical omnipotence and omnibenevolence have problems when you cash things out, but the concept of 'God' doesn't require both those things.

But the Christian God does, the bible, on multiple occasions describes God as both omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, even in the New Testament.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@DebateGod

"less than tri-omni is basically heresy."

Yes, it's certainly not the standard view. But the concept 'God' doesn't require it. When the Bible describes God as being able to do all things, does that mean all things right away? Or does that mean all things working through time?

" blindness isn't necessarily a good thing"

That's what I'm saying - it could be a good thing or a bad thing.

"I specifically said I was talking about solely humans"

I'm not sure what your point is here. Belief in the existence of God is compatible with less than the best behavior among humans, certainly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@WVProgressive

"But the Christian God does, the bible, on multiple occasions describes God as both omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, even in the New Testament."

Do you have any verses in particular in mind?

Also, are you saying that to be a Christian you have to believe in Biblical infallibility?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, DebateGod said:

Also @admin_270 If I remember correctly in Christian theology Satan was delegated for that purpose.

Are you referring to the book of Job?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×