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1 minute ago, Reagan04 said:

You were the one who brought it up though, you have no right to say it is irrelevant.

I agree, but he has days where it gets really bad and he becomes extraordinarily toxic.

Usually when you're reciting from your paraphrased script to blindly and sheepishly defend the indefensible and deny known fact and the blatantly obvious to promote a worn-out, outmoded, and vile ideology without even stopping once to think about glaring flaws in what you're saying. That's when I get frustrated (at least with you) and some nastiness does slip.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Usually when you're reciting from your paraphrased script to blindly and sheepishly defend the indefensible and deny known fact and the blatantly obvious to promote a worn-out, outmoded, and vile ideology without even stopping once to think about glaring flaws in what you're saying. That's when I get frustrated (at least with you) and some nastiness does slip.

Do you wonder why I don't get nasty with you until you do with me, and when I do to a much lesser extent? Because unlike you I don't attribute impure motives to those with whom I disagree and find it incredibly churlish of you to do so. I may feel the same way of how you present your points, but I don't say anything because I know better. It is a real shame that even as you present yourself as a learned individual you cannot seem to grasp the concept that not all with whom you have discord are robots with no discernible free thought or otherwise rational expression.

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14 minutes ago, Patine said:

Usually when you're reciting from your paraphrased script to blindly and sheepishly defend the indefensible and deny known fact and the blatantly obvious to promote a worn-out, outmoded, and vile ideology.

Did EndofCapitalism hijack your account?

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19 minutes ago, Reagan04 said:

Do you wonder why I don't get nasty with you until you do with me, and when I do to a much lesser extent? Because unlike you I don't attribute impure motives to those with whom I disagree and find it incredibly churlish of you to do so. I may feel the same way of how you present your points, but I don't say anything because I know better. It is a real shame that even as you present yourself as a learned individual you cannot seem to grasp the concept that not all with whom you have discord are robots with no discernible free thought or otherwise rational expression.

No, although I do get frustrated debating these things with you, I moreso pity you. Yet another young sheep thoroughly brainwashed into unbending, unquestioning, intractable obedience to one of several different and opposing flocks who serve monstrous shepherds of deception - and serve them well, and without deviation or veering from the script.

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3 minutes ago, Patine said:

Yet another young sheep thoroughly brainwashed into unbending, unquestioning, intractable obedience to one of several different and opposing flocks who serve monstrous shepherds of deception - and serve them well, and without deviation or veering from the script.

You really don't have a scientific understanding of Brainwashing or group identity based on this post.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

No, although I do get frustrated debating these things with you, I moreso pity you. Yet another young sheep thoroughly brainwashed into unbending, unquestioning, intractable obedience to one of several different and opposing flocks who serve monstrous shepherds of deception - and serve them well, and without deviation or veering from the script.

I think the whole point of my polemic was lost on you. To extend pity upon a political opponent is truly an immature and childish move. Just because I hold opinions divergent of your own does not make me a brainwashed sheep and I am indignant at the assertion. Shame on you for such condescendingly conniving statements. Do you even hear how pretentious you sound. You tempt the block button good sir.

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1 minute ago, NYrepublican said:

You really don't have a scientific understanding of Brainwashing or group identity based on this post.

No, your understanding is limited to clichéd examples and situational limits, and not the broad phenomenon of social conditioning in all of it's MANY forms.

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1 minute ago, Reagan04 said:

I think the whole point of my polemic was lost on you. To extend pity upon a political opponent is truly an immature and childish move. Just because I hold opinions divergent of your own does not make me a brainwashed sheep and I am indignant at the assertion. Shame on you for such condescendingly conniving statements. Do you even hear how pretentious you sound. You tempt the block button good sir.

I give up! I now see why they say you can't reason with a wild-eyed fanatic, no matter how well-spoken they seem. I'm wasting my time with this conversation!

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

No, your understanding is limited to clichéd examples and situational limits, and not the broad phenomenon of social conditioning in all of it's MANY forms.

So only when one exhibits opinion identically conformant to yours is one not brainwashed? I believe I've heard this mantra before.

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

No, your understanding is limited to clichéd examples and situational limits, and not the broad phenomenon of social conditioning in all of it's MANY forms.

What you said MIGHT be true had he always supported the president but he doesn't disproving your point.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

I give up! I now see why they say you can't reason with a wild-eyed fanatic, no matter how well-spoken they seem. I'm wasting my time with this conversation!

We Evangelicals generally are well-educated, as Traditional our views are.

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Just now, Reagan04 said:

So only when one exhibits opinion identically conformant to yours is one not brainwashed? I believe I've heard this mantra before.

No, that's what I said. You just ignore reason, logic, fact, and evidence, and don't consider once oft repeated flaws in what you're saying. THAT is what I can't deal with, and what so frustrates me.

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Just now, Patine said:

[T]hat's what I said.

A freudian slip?

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3 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

What you said MIGHT be true had he always supported the president but he doesn't disproving your point.

Trump has no part in what I'm talking about. In fact, he's probably the most detached and removed U.S. Republican President from the phenomenon I'm addressing since Eisenhower.

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3 minutes ago, Patine said:

No, that's what I said. You just ignore reason, logic, fact, and evidence, and don't consider once oft repeated flaws in what you're saying. THAT is what I can't deal with, and what so frustrates me.

So as soon as I corner you on exactly what you said, I am ignoring the facts and logic despite that being your method of pursuance the entire exchange?

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Trump has no part in what I'm talking about. In fact, he's probably the most detached and removed U.S. Republican President from the phenomenon I'm addressing since Eisenhower.

Well by "vile ideology" you seemed to be describing Trumpism.

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3 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Well by "vile ideology" you seemed to be describing Trumpism.

 

4 minutes ago, Patine said:

Trump has no part in what I'm talking about. In fact, he's probably the most detached and removed U.S. Republican from the phenomenon I'm addressing since Eisenhower.

Throng Thread, gentlemen.

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Just now, Reagan04 said:

So as soon as I corner you on exactly what you said, I am ignoring the facts and logic despite that being your method of pursuance the entire exchange?

You've never "cornered me" yet. You just proclaim victory prematurely and annoying in these debates like that stupid baby's tag line on that stupid adult cartoon (not the Simpsons or South Park, but the other big one).

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2 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Well by "vile ideology" you seemed to be describing Trumpism.

Do you even remotely, nearly think that "Trumpism" has a monopoly on that label?

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

You've never "cornered me" yet. You just proclaim victory prematurely and annoying in these debates like that stupid baby's tag line on that stupid adult cartoon (not the Simpsons or South Park, but the other big one).

Forgive me for misrepresenting my point, as in I cornered you on your remarks, and never once have I done that. In fact I have always expressed grand enmity for those who do.

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Just now, Reagan04 said:

Forgive me for misrepresenting my point, as in I cornered you on your remarks, and never once have I done that. In fact I have always expressed grand enmity for those who do.

I'm saying that you ignore reason, logic, fact, and evidence in defending your own rhetoric. That is what I was getting at.

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@Reagan04 @NYrepublican I am logging out for the night to collect my wits and calm down. And, in true Christian fashion, I am going to forgive you both for any trespasses, however minor these may be, and try and hope to be in better spirits tomorrow. Have a good night, and God Bless!

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2 minutes ago, Patine said:

I'm saying that you ignore reason, logic, fact, and evidence in defending your own rhetoric. That is what I was getting at.

That is not the point you were making originally, and this is yet another falsehood and personal attack. I could say the same of you, but again, it is only logical that our logics have delivered us to two radically conclusions. And yet you refuse to accept any inkling of possibility that I might even have an iota of my own logic, fact, reason, or evidence correct that you might be just a scintilla erroneous.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

@Reagan04 @NYrepublican I am logging out for the night to collect my wits and calm down. And, in true Christian fashion, I am going to forgive you both for any trespasses, however minor these may be, and try and hope to be in better spirits tomorrow. Have a good night, and God Bless!

And God Bless you Patine.

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I don't really want to get involved here, but I have to say a few things. 

In regards to 1860 -- I hold with those that believe that the Southern Democrats would have likely made things worse, or at least different. You would have probably seen a lot of violence breakout in the North and swoop Southward, but with state militias, rather than with a national draft. The Northern Democrats and the Constitutional Union Party would have just kicked the problem down the road, possibly leading to "minor" violent uprisings between slave-activists and abolitionist-activists. Lincoln was the best possible options, but the slave activists decided to secede, despite a moderate Republican taking the White House. Had they not seceded, Slavery would have been purely contained, rather than abolished. Lincoln fortunately made slavery a war policy by 1862 and so sped up our progression. 

In regards to current political parties. Both are heavily flawed. I'd say Republicans are the most hypocritical; at least when they cite religion. Neither party is in any way Godly. Both should not pretend to be on God's side until they make an attempt to emulate Jesus. Neither does. I agree with @Patine in that the Republicans fail to uphold their original beliefs, which were primarily liberty and equality, Democrats aren't much better, but I think they aim to do more fore equality. Liberty is tricky subject. Most people close their mind to the fact that economics has a lot to do with liberty and equality. Things like the minimum wage, healthcare, etc. are equalizing factors. I'd argue that the Scandinavians countries are the most equal countries, and those that allow the most liberty for an individual. They even get paid vacation time to flaunt their liberty on the beaches of France or wherever they wish to go. The US should be envious, and I think American could have a similar system AND make it BETTER. After all, America has a history of taking in the best of other worlds and adapted it to part of our culture. This goes for both immigrants and ideas. 

I won't leap into the personal attacks I've noticed here. I've sort of skipped every post that seems like one. I do think that anyone under 21 years old is at a disadvantage in some of these discussions. One needs to have some worldly experience away from both their parents house or parents influence (especially monetary) to really understand the world. 

Going back to parties, I can see why one might be a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green or other, but I can't see any rationale for supporting Trump. One would have to have to have some sort of mental impairment or historical blinders on to see any value to him, except as some sort of sick lesson. 

I won't respond or read any further posts on this thread. I'm out. 

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