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NYrepublican

Civics education sucks

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'nuff said

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Asking children and foreigners about U.S history is extremely sketchy and shows Praguer U. can't be trusted.

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Just now, WVProgressive said:

Asking children and foreigners about U.S history is extremely sketchy and shows Praguer U. can't be trusted.

I don't think we watched the same video.

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Civics education hasn't existed in American schools since the 1970s. Or maybe some of y'all are from more liberal states where that's still a thing. I know that here in Texas, I have to argue with boomers all the time who grew up with a literal class that was dedicated to civics education who don't seem to understand that such classes no longer exist and thus arguing that kids today didn't pay attention in that class is ridiculous.

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2 hours ago, Lyly said:

Civics education hasn't existed in American schools since the 1970s. Or maybe some of y'all are from more liberal states where that's still a thing. I know that here in Texas, I have to argue with boomers all the time who grew up with a literal class that was dedicated to civics education who don't seem to understand that such classes no longer exist and thus arguing that kids today didn't pay attention in that class is ridiculous.

I said education not class.

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22 hours ago, NYrepublican said:

'nuff said

 

22 hours ago, WVProgressive said:

Asking children and foreigners about U.S history is extremely sketchy and shows Praguer U. can't be trusted.

 

22 hours ago, Reagan04 said:

I don't think we watched the same video.

 

7 hours ago, Presidentinsertname said:

tide pod challenge.

Uneducated, unaware, highly-parochial, and uninformed people who cling to old myths, fallacies, erroneous information, and bad stereotypes and easily buy into and eat well-presented lies and propaganda are a strongly desired and prized demographic in the electoral constituency of any politician or political party of a manipulative, deceitful, dishonorable, and unscrupulous nature for whom solid facts and an open, transparent exposure of their true beliefs are ideally avoided for their ulterior motives to be optimal.

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1 hour ago, NYrepublican said:

I said education not class.

Fair. We are in agreement though, for sure.

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7 hours ago, Lyly said:

Civics education hasn't existed in American schools since the 1970s. Or maybe some of y'all are from more liberal states where that's still a thing. I know that here in Texas, I have to argue with boomers all the time who grew up with a literal class that was dedicated to civics education who don't seem to understand that such classes no longer exist and thus arguing that kids today didn't pay attention in that class is ridiculous.

I'm from Ohio (North of Cincinnati), and we had to take classes on Government, and got Civics drilled into us. Our districts must be rather different.

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18 hours ago, LokiLoki22 said:

I'm from Ohio (North of Cincinnati), and we had to take classes on Government, and got Civics drilled into us. Our districts must be rather different.

As someone from Ohio (also North of Cincinatti) , we have American and World Government classes that we take.

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Government classes are different from civics classes, for what it's worth. Texas has mandatory government classes, but it has no civics education.

I feel that my position might be controversial, so I'll try to explain a bit about what I see as the difference between the two. An American government class exists to explain the function and the theories of the federal government, the court system, elections, and how and why state governments exist. Government class is the what and the why, but civics class is the how (and some why too, in my opinion). Civics is about the dynamics of politics and compromise, not the theory and framework of its catalysts in this country. Civics is building community, at the community level upward, while American Government classes begin at the top and the state and county and city governments are ancillary constructs.

But the way I see it, Government classes are only half of what's needed. I said earlier that I've talked to many people from prior generations who had in public school a civics education. These people also had government classes - they had both. That's what I'm talking about.

For anyone who has been in the Scouting program, think of the emphasis used in the Citizenship merit badges, or even simply the concept behind that name. Citizenship is different from understanding how government works, and it's good that good citizenship be explained and modeled and practiced, just as it is good to have the mechanics and theory of the American representative system detailed and broken down into constituent systems.

Granted, what I am talking about may not be related to what's in the video above - I've not watched it. That video may not be about civics as I understand it. Maybe it's just a guy asking people trivia questions?

[edit]
I also feel like NYrepublican and I are approaching the same point here - I'm talking about classes, while he wanted emphasize that he means education as a general social function - in this case, I suspect, that civics is not communicated as a social value even outside of formalistic classroom-taught standards. I feel the same way in that sense. Civics can't be subject to the way modern school works with an expectation that it will yield positive results in the real world. If people aren't debating with their friends and neighbors, if they aren't being asked to make decisions as a group over minute and routine personal matters, if they don't value the education in themselves of the how and the why of civic life, then willful ignorance and social laziness is the result. (If you have the time, I'd like to know if that touches close to your feelings, @NYrepublican) I hope that makes sense!

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7 hours ago, Lyly said:

Government classes are different from civics classes, for what it's worth. Texas has mandatory government classes, but it has no civics education.

I feel that my position might be controversial, so I'll try to explain a bit about what I see as the difference between the two. An American government class exists to explain the function and the theories of the federal government, the court system, elections, and how and why state governments exist. Government class is the what and the why, but civics class is the how (and some why too, in my opinion). Civics is about the dynamics of politics and compromise, not the theory and framework of its catalysts in this country. Civics is building community, at the community level upward, while American Government classes begin at the top and the state and county and city governments are ancillary constructs.

But the way I see it, Government classes are only half of what's needed. I said earlier that I've talked to many people from prior generations who had in public school a civics education. These people also had government classes - they had both. That's what I'm talking about.

For anyone who has been in the Scouting program, think of the emphasis used in the Citizenship merit badges, or even simply the concept behind that name. Citizenship is different from understanding how government works, and it's good that good citizenship be explained and modeled and practiced, just as it is good to have the mechanics and theory of the American representative system detailed and broken down into constituent systems.

Granted, what I am talking about may not be related to what's in the video above - I've not watched it. That video may not be about civics as I understand it. Maybe it's just a guy asking people trivia questions?

[edit]
I also feel like NYrepublican and I are approaching the same point here - I'm talking about classes, while he wanted emphasize that he means education as a general social function - in this case, I suspect, that civics is not communicated as a social value even outside of formalistic classroom-taught standards. I feel the same way in that sense. Civics can't be subject to the way modern school works with an expectation that it will yield positive results in the real world. If people aren't debating with their friends and neighbors, if they aren't being asked to make decisions as a group over minute and routine personal matters, if they don't value the education in themselves of the how and the why of civic life, then willful ignorance and social laziness is the result. (If you have the time, I'd like to know if that touches close to your feelings, @NYrepublican) I hope that makes sense!

When I went to school (25 years ago I was done with it), we learned about Canadian government and civic, American government, and many foreign government systems as well. I personal think a more holistic and broad viewpoint, and less parochial and strictly in-the-box (and non-religious - religious should be reserved ONLY for a place of worship or other institution outside of an actual school ground and shouldn't mean opting out of important courses when in school, like evolution, origin astronomy, or life skills, including sexual education). But I know I'll get a lot of flack for this this belief...

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I think a big part of it is the nebulous 'social studies' class students take each year. Honestly, I don't remember a single thing we learned through 8th grade in those classes, it just seemed to be a smattering of topics loosely connected (geography, history, government, etc). In high school we had a two-year sequence on 'Global History and Geography' (mostly from mainstream texts) in 9th and 10th grades, AP US History from People's History in 11th grade, then in 12 grade superficial a one-semester economics course, with AP US Govt the second semester (no textbook, but we had to read the Federalist Papers and 'In Our Defense' as summer assignments, and AP Euro (don't remember the text) as an elective.

I don't know if this is the standard (seems to still be the sequence generally used in NY public schools), but I think it would make more sense to have proper introductions to government and ethics, and a more sophisticated economics course during the year (we didn't have AP Econ, though even that isn't necessary; just a full year course with legitimate material would suffice), earlier on, and perhaps introduced earlier. Though the political science club was popular at my school, and we spent a lot of the year preparing for events like JSA and Model Congress.

Just seems like a giant waste, when other subjects (English, foreign language, science) begin teaching useful material in middle school. The problems I have aren't as grave as those I have with mathematics education at least, however.

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