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NYrepublican

Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection act has passed

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6 minutes ago, vcczar said:

Most of the Catholics that I know don't go to church very often. So, as you say, "cultural Catholics," in the way that most American Jews are culturally Jewish, and not really active in their religion. I think Evangelicals are the most active denomination of Christianity in the United States. 

In regards to my quote above, I should have left it as "evangelical protestants." I included the skin-color only because the Pew Research Poll did, but I wasn't even thinking that I had inserted the skin-color, which is why I responded how I did to @Reagan04. So I'll restate it as I meant to say it, "Imagine how wonderful this country would be if only college educated people voted, and evangelical protestants were barred from voting or holding office," even though I would never favor such a voter restriction in order to have better,  and more progressive, pro-science laws passed. 

OK the structures needed to feel pain develop for fetuses at the 23rd - 30th week of pregnancy should abortion be banned beginning at that time when the abortion would clearly cause pain to the fetus?

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7 minutes ago, vcczar said:

So I'll restate it as I meant to say it, "Imagine how wonderful this country would be if only college educated people voted, and evangelical protestants were barred from voting or holding office," even though I would never favor such a voter restriction in order to have better,  and more progressive, pro-science laws passed. 

OK what if someone said tomorrow "Imagine how wonderful this country would be if only Christians,Atheists and Jews voted, and Muslims were barred from voting or holding office even though I would never favor such a voter restriction in order to weed out the conservative Islamic 'cult' and get more progressive, pro-science laws passed. "?

How is the above statement different from your re-stated statement @vcczar?

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10 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

OK the structures needed to feel pain develop for fetuses at the 23rd - 30th week of pregnancy should abortion be banned beginning at that time when the abortion would clearly cause pain to the fetus?

Of course, pain being a qualifier for this legislation shoots the Pro-Life lobby in the foot for their other big plank - opposition to physician-assisted suicide, which is often motivated by a person in chronic, incurable PAIN who want to (or their family does, if their can't coherently act) terminate the misery in a simple, humane medical way. But such short-sighted policies and visions and lack of foresight has been become the hallmark of so many conservative parties and their policies across the board, in social, economic, military, and political legislative proposals, so it's no surprise.

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Just now, Patine said:

Of this, pain being a qualifier for this legislation shoots the Pro-Life lobby in the foot for their other big plank - opposition to physician-assisted suicide, which is often motivated by a person in chronic, incurable PAIN who want to (or their family does, if their can't coherently act) terminate the misery in a simple, humane medical way. But such short-sighted policies and visions and lack of foresight has been become the hallmark of so many conservative parties and their policies across the board, in social, economic, military, and political legislative proposals, so it's no surprise.

As long as they fully understand their choice and it's not being done on a whim I don't have a massive issue with it.

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2 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

As long as they fully understand their choice and it's not being done on a whim I don't have a massive issue with it.

And who would judge it's a whim or not? The local political figures or elected judges? I think one of the big problems for these "hot button" social issues is that things that should be an individual's own decision, like bringing a child to term, dying on their choice when life becomes unbearable, or who someone wants to live in some form of matrimony or civil union with, has been mandated instead that the government must be the one to decide, and it's decisions must be binding on all even it those decisions were made only to cater to or under influence one specific ideological point of view that may well not even reflect a majority. And when I say "government," I mean both Federal AND State government (or analogs in other countries). So perhaps the abandonment of legislation solely for the purposes of social engineering or enforcement of non-universally-held views of morality in these matters might be best.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

And who would judge it's a whim or not? The local political figures or elected judges? 

The caretaker and/or family of the individual

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2 hours ago, Patine said:

Of course, pain being a qualifier for this legislation shoots the Pro-Life lobby in the foot for their other big plank - opposition to physician-assisted suicide, which is often motivated by a person in chronic, incurable PAIN who want to (or their family does, if their can't coherently act) terminate the misery in a simple, humane medical way.

But life itself is something full of extreme pain, absurdity and disappointment. Life by its very nature is always too hard so on that reasoning everyone might as well kill themselves at any time.

"But such short-sighted policies and visions and lack of foresight has been become the hallmark of so many conservative parties and their policies across the board, in social, economic, military, and political legislative proposals, so it's no surprise."

*Rolls eyes Just another day on the 270soft forum.

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@Patine

"things that should be an individual's own decision, like bringing a child to term"

It seems to me the issue here is when do you have two relevant individuals? Presumably the government should protect infants? If so, what about just before they're born? If not, why not?

I think many people would say the relevant issue is the development of the nervous system (including the brain), and this kind of legislation falls into that category. It seems the intuition going along with this kind of legislation is that if a human being has a nervous system capable of feeling pain, then they are human beings that have reached an important developmental point and society ought to recognize them as having intrinsic moral value and being worth protecting. It's possible to disagree with this reasoning on both sides of the political spectrum, but we have to decide on certain criteria for protecting young human beings.

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1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

@Patine

"things that should be an individual's own decision, like bringing a child to term"

It seems to me the issue here is when do you have two relevant individuals? Presumably the government should protect infants? If so, what about just before they're born? If not, why not?

I think many people would say the relevant issue is the development of the nervous system (including the brain), and this kind of legislation falls into that category. It seems the intuition going along with this kind of legislation is that if a human being has a nervous system capable of feeling pain, then they are human beings that have reached an important developmental point and society ought to recognize them as having intrinsic moral value and being worth protecting. It's possible to disagree with this reasoning on both sides of the political spectrum, but we have to decide on certain criteria for protecting young human beings.

All lifeforms in the Chordata Phylum of Kingdom Animalia (vertibraes) have a central nervous system. We certainly don't lump them all as Human by that criteria alone.

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Just now, admin_270 said:

@Patine

So I'll ask it again, should the government protect infants? If so, what about just before they're born? If not, why not?

I personally believe a fetus (or embryo) should be considered as part of the mother's body until actually born. Otherwise we tread into the territory where women became only legally vessels for bearing a child, with no legal propriety or autonomy in that regard over that aspect of their own body, and it could be pushed further into such legal territory as women being charged for manslaughter for having a miscarriage or other complication of pregnancy, many of which are almost entirely beyond many women's ability to realistically prevent, etc.

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@Patine

The government restricts what people can do with their bodies all the time, when it affects other people. It seems your response is just assuming the point in question, which is at what point do human beings have moral value such that the government ought to afford legal protection?

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1 minute ago, admin_270 said:

@Patine

The government restricts what people can do with their bodies all the time, when it affects other people. It seems your response is just assuming the point in question, which is at what point do human beings have moral value such that the government ought to afford legal protection?

I hate to say it, but this is one of those issues that lingers in the socio-political zeitgeist where two people with different opinions, even if debating in a rational, intelligent, and civilized way, could debate until they were both blue (or red) in the face, and not move the other's opinions at all, at least in my experience. Thus, with all due respect, I would like to propose concluding this debate with no concessions being made.

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