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Catalonia Independence Referendum

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34 minutes ago, Patine said:

Is Macron being a "centralist securitarist European federalist" part of why you see him being a poor politician, or on top of or beside that, out of curiosity. Also, in terms of foreign policy of great French leaders, there was also Napoleon Bonaparte, who wanted complete French hegemony over Europe and to divide into a bunch of puppet, proxy, and submissive nations, but I digress...

To be honest and as a huge proportion of young french I admired Napoléon first for his charisma and his victories, but even if he was a liberal dictator supported by his people like Hugo Chavez (excepted for the "liberal" term), I admit today he's a dictator, and many french can not accept it. I was young when I was in the denial.

Today if Napoléon would come back in politic some funny polling members told he could start at 22% in a presidential election race that would put him in the second turn since the beginning.

What I recognize to a good leader in diplomacy? Someone who knows where it is good or not to stand with or not without risking the national image to cover-up strong "derivations".

Macron is just an european extreme dreamer, I am not yet an eurosceptic but I even hesitated to vote for him, this man will cover everything to come to his federal dream.

Jacques Chirac has been great while he stood up against USA in Irak and however supported Bush in Afghanistan, this was a smart moove and a good prediction because only an international cooperation could prevent the region to collapse even if Sadam Hussein was a pure monster also with the Kurds and that I can not at all deny it.

The General de Gaulle has been great while he understood the necessity of decolonization and also said to the USA to stop the war in Vietnam, also when he supported the Quebecer's will of secession one year before the creation of the first independentist party of Quebec.

This is totally insane that France is currently covering Spain while a spokesperson said that Carles Puigdemont could hend under a military execution like one of his former predecessors in the sad story of Spain (like France has got).

Even Angela Merkel who is a right conservative similar to Rajoy acted wisely than our young fresh european federalist president, that is the first man who push me far away from UE whilewe're one of the 2 only countries who hold referendum about the European Constitution in 2005 and rejected it.

France should stay at least on a neutral point of view regarding this matter and says that this is an intern issue of Spain for the Catalan and Spani people.

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1 minute ago, NYrepublican said:

He refers to his refusal to recognize a Catalan independence.

Well, as a note, when the Catalans rose (among other groups in the country) as "guerillas" when the term was first coined in Spain again Joseph Bonaparte, the French proxy king of Spain, his older brother Napoleon sent him a few more Battalions, as I recall.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Well, as a note, when the Catalans rose (among other groups in the country) as "guerillas" when the term was first coined in Spain again Joseph Bonaparte, the French proxy king of Spain, his older brother Napoleon sent him a few more Battalions, as I recall.

I explained my position about the Emperor Napoléon in my previous message, you can see that I recognize what you say, it does not withdraw my high critic on Macron's current legacy.

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2 minutes ago, Sami said:

Jacques Chirac has been great while he stood up against USA in Irak and however supported Bush in Afghanistan, this was a smart moove and a good prediction because only an international cooperation could prevent the region to collapse even if Sadam Hussein was a pure monster also with the Kurds and that I can not at all deny it.

That was pretty much the same choice Canadian PM Jean Chretien made at that time too.

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Just now, Patine said:

That was pretty much the same choice Canadian PM Jean Chretien made at that time too.

And it was even more courageous regarding the economic dependence of Canada.

It was also good that Jean Chretien accepts the Second Referendum of independence, unlike one of his Spanish colleague.

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2 minutes ago, Sami said:

I explained my position about the Emperor Napoléon in my previous message, you can see that I recognize what you say, it does not withdraw my high critic on Macron's current legacy.

And I was typing just before your last response there. :P

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12 hours ago, Sami said:

With a full honesty, Macron has good chances of re-election...

France is recovering with economic growth just now after years of low growth, so Macron is helped by the period and risks to have a quite good end of mandate on the economic issue.

However the Socialists are still trying to search a leader, I see them as the PASOK after 2012, a tierce party.

Mélenchon has his chances for 2022 if he plays the Tsipras' strategy of being more moderate than in 2017 but he also has his haters (he's the well qualified for fighting Macron even if I disapprove him).

The Front National and the Right are in chaos, 1) Florian Philippot the Frexit wing of the National Front just resigned so the National Front will pass from a UKIP mod to a BUP mod that won't help them to keep the coalition they had, they will loose voters to Jean Luc Mélenchon and the far left.

And as I said the Right is just exploded, the Mayor of Nice, Christian Estrosi launched a "moderate" group in the Right between EN MARCHE and the Right. Valérie Pécresse the Republican Pdt of Paris region has also launched her movement in the center of the party that will oppose the next President of the Right, Laurent Wauquiez that will for himself lead a blue-conservatuive-close of the far-right coalition.

Hence with 3 movements in the Right party and the exclusion of the Eurosceptic wing of the National Front in France I do estimate that the Right is currently disqualificating itself...

The Left is divided into pieces (Greens,Socialists,Radicals, the new movement of Hamon called the 31st July....).

With that period Macron that lead the Center and Mélenchon the Strong Left close of the far-left are probably the most potential ticket for 2022, currently of course.

And I do believe that I should get a binationality soon xD.

Thanks for the analysis

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12 hours ago, Sami said:

With a full honesty, Macron has good chances of re-election...

France is recovering with economic growth just now after years of low growth, so Macron is helped by the period and risks to have a quite good end of mandate on the economic issue.

However the Socialists are still trying to search a leader, I see them as the PASOK after 2012, a tierce party.

Mélenchon has his chances for 2022 if he plays the Tsipras' strategy of being more moderate than in 2017 but he also has his haters (he's the well qualified for fighting Macron even if I disapprove him).

The Front National and the Right are in chaos, 1) Florian Philippot the Frexit wing of the National Front just resigned so the National Front will pass from a UKIP mod to a BUP mod that won't help them to keep the coalition they had, they will loose voters to Jean Luc Mélenchon and the far left.

And as I said the Right is just exploded, the Mayor of Nice, Christian Estrosi launched a "moderate" group in the Right between EN MARCHE and the Right. Valérie Pécresse the Republican Pdt of Paris region has also launched her movement in the center of the party that will oppose the next President of the Right, Laurent Wauquiez that will for himself lead a blue-conservatuive-close of the far-right coalition.

Hence with 3 movements in the Right party and the exclusion of the Eurosceptic wing of the National Front in France I do estimate that the Right is currently disqualificating itself...

The Left is divided into pieces (Greens,Socialists,Radicals, the new movement of Hamon called the 31st July....).

With that period Macron that lead the Center and Mélenchon the Strong Left close of the far-left are probably the most potential ticket for 2022, currently of course.

And I do believe that I should get a binationality soon xD.

Thanks for the analysis

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21 hours ago, Sami said:

With a full honesty, Macron has good chances of re-election...

France is recovering with economic growth just now after years of low growth, so Macron is helped by the period and risks to have a quite good end of mandate on the economic issue.

However the Socialists are still trying to search a leader, I see them as the PASOK after 2012, a tierce party.

Mélenchon has his chances for 2022 if he plays the Tsipras' strategy of being more moderate than in 2017 but he also has his haters (he's the well qualified for fighting Macron even if I disapprove him).

The Front National and the Right are in chaos, 1) Florian Philippot the Frexit wing of the National Front just resigned so the National Front will pass from a UKIP mod to a BUP mod that won't help them to keep the coalition they had, they will loose voters to Jean Luc Mélenchon and the far left.

And as I said the Right is just exploded, the Mayor of Nice, Christian Estrosi launched a "moderate" group in the Right between EN MARCHE and the Right. Valérie Pécresse the Republican Pdt of Paris region has also launched her movement in the center of the party that will oppose the next President of the Right, Laurent Wauquiez that will for himself lead a blue-conservatuive-close of the far-right coalition.

Hence with 3 movements in the Right party and the exclusion of the Eurosceptic wing of the National Front in France I do estimate that the Right is currently disqualificating itself...

The Left is divided into pieces (Greens,Socialists,Radicals, the new movement of Hamon called the 31st July....).

With that period Macron that lead the Center and Mélenchon the Strong Left close of the far-left are probably the most potential ticket for 2022, currently of course.

And I do believe that I should get a binationality soon xD.

With the Frexit side leaving the FN, do you see a more UKIP-esque party rising in France?  I know they have been accepted into the EFDD European group.

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5 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

With the Frexit side leaving the FN, do you see a more UKIP-esque party rising in France?  I know they have been accepted into the EFDD European group.

At least Mrs.Waters didn't win that election thankfully.

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11 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

With the Frexit side leaving the FN, do you see a more UKIP-esque party rising in France?  I know they have been accepted into the EFDD European group.

The FREXIT is more jeopardized now than 1 year before.

When UK voted to leave, Marine le Pen said yes to Florian Phillipot and the FN endorsed the UE exit.

During the Second Turn 2017 campain she accepted a "gaullist" candidate (Nicolas Dupont Aignant who got 5%) and said he would be PM if she wins, then the FN told before the 6th may <<if we win maybe we could stay in UE and even accept to keep the euro>>.

Then the clash happened Inside the National Front from this day between Marine and Florian, since he leaved after intern explosions and Florian increased his movement "Les Patriotes", but this association has only few members (some thousands) and few elected members, maybe this will become a party.

There is also another movement led by François Asselineau, but his party is independent of the movement of Florian.

For me the National Front is becoming again that he was in the 90's, a european liberal and racist party, but the transition is just coming.

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On ‎27‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 11:46 PM, Patine said:

I wanted to quote enough people so I use it:

Carles announced the unilateral declaration of independence of Catalonia for at max the 1st october 2018, but can wait untill there apparently a bit for dialog.

(his speech was quite ambivalent so the Catalan here can correct me if I badly understood).

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On 10/8/2017 at 3:08 PM, Sami said:

If I am right:

More than 700 000-1 million people were gathered for the independence

Today, 350 000 (to 900 000) for Spanish unity

So 2 huges crowds quite egal in term of people, nice to see that only a referendum could decide it.

I do not reduce it, but the number is yet to estimate as votes unwished by the Central Power are forbiden in the Democratic Spain

Catalonia will never end with this story peacefully without a democratic process, maybe it's time for at least for a regional election in Catalonia.

 

it was a illegal vote thought.

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On 10/2/2017 at 7:15 PM, Sami said:

Indeed, in Europe the Center is the most pro European.

The Communist want to reform or to leave EU while the Far Right is ambivalent on the option.

are they any anti eu centers?

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18 minutes ago, Presidentinsertname said:

it was a illegal vote thought.

Many things are illegal if you refer to the text:

-The referendum was illegal, but in UK and Canada the central government accepted the theory that the people can has its stay. It was also unconstitutionnal.

The power to people was also an unconstitutionnal creation from the French and American revolution that were illegal, without his war of independence Georges Washington was Nothing more than a man who was Under illegality of the Great Britain untill the Americans gained their right to secession and that GB accepts it.

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3 hours ago, Sami said:

Many things are illegal if you refer to the text:

-The referendum was illegal, but in UK and Canada the central government accepted the theory that the people can has its stay. It was also unconstitutionnal.

The power to people was also an unconstitutionnal creation from the French and American revolution that were illegal, without his war of independence Georges Washington was Nothing more than a man who was Under illegality of the Great Britain untill the Americans gained their right to secession and that GB accepts it.

Actually, the "power to the people" principal can actually be traced as far back as the overthrow of the seventh and last King of Rome, Lucius Tarquinus Superbus, by the citizens and Senate of Rome and the proclamation on Capitoline Hill by Marcus Aurenicus of the Roman Republic, in 509 BC, about 2200 years before the American and French Revolutions.

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

Actually, the "power to the people" principal can actually be traced as far back as the overthrow of the seventh and last King of Rome, Lucius Tarquinus Superbus, by the citizens and Senate of Rome and the proclamation on Capitoline Hill by Marcus Aurenicus of the Roman Republic, in 509 BC, about 2200 years before the American and French Revolutions.

Ah yes on that you can be right too, even maybe Greece (on the notion of Citizen), I am not specialized in Ancient law I only know how the institutions of the Roman Republic were made and how the Emperor centralized everything.

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Just now, Sami said:

Ah yes on that you can be right too, even maybe Greece (on the notion of Citizen), I am not specialized in Ancient law I only know how the institutions of the Roman Republic were made and how the Emperor centralized everything.

The Emperor was not part of the actual Republic. He was post-Republic (like Napoleon as Emperor was in France, in fact, or the fictitious Palpatine in the Star War movies). The Roman Republic was from the event I stated above until 29 AD, when Octavian, the great nephew and heir of the previously assassinated Julius Gaius Caesar, defeated all his meaningful opponents in the Republic (Mark Antony, Cleopatra Philopater, Brutus Cassius, Caesar's assassin, the heir of Pompeii (also often called in record in Pompeii), Marcus Lepidus, and a few others), and was recognized as having absolute authority in all Roman lands as Imperator (or "commander" - where the word Emperor is derived) and renamed Augustus by the Senate, though he only ever used the title of Prinsceps (or "first citizen") in his own lifetime, that event effectively began the Empire and ended the Republic. The Roman Republic itself was much more constitutional and electoral, with many more political checks and balances to it, when it actually existed in practice.

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Just now, Patine said:

The Emperor was not part of the actual Republic. He was post-Republic (like Napoleon as Emperor was in France, in fact, or the fictitious Palpatine in the Star War movies). The Roman Republic was from the event I stated above until 29 AD, when Octavian, the great nephew and heir of the previously assassinated Julius Gaius Caesar, defeated all his meaningful opponents in the Republic (Mark Antony, Cleopatra Philopater, Brutus Cassius, Caesar's assassin, the heir of Pompeii (also often called in record in Pompeii), Marcus Lepidus, and a few others), and was recognized as having absolute authority in all Roman lands as Imperator (or "commander" - where the word Emperor is derived) and renamed Augustus by the Senate, though he only ever used the title of Prinsceps (or "first citizen") in his own lifetime, that event effectively began the Empire and ended the Republic. The Roman Republic itself was much more constitutional and electoral, with many more political checks and balances to it, when it actually existed in practice.

Yes but the institutions of the Republic have shutdowned after the rise of the Empire.

For example the comices, assemblies of citizens which voted the law has stopped to vote in the late 1st century.

The same for the assembly of the Plebeum but after.

And also the same for the Senate, I am maybe not taking all of the assemblies but these were the three majors of the Republic in the creation of the law ^^.

The Emperor used the augustus privilege of his acts to bypass every law and to restrict them.

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1 minute ago, Sami said:

Yes but the institutions of the Republic have shutdowned after the rise of the Empire.

For example the comices, assemblies of citizens which voted the law has stopped to vote in the late 1st century.

The same for the assembly of the Plebeum but after.

And also the same for the Senate, I am maybe not taking all of the assemblies but these were the three majors of the Republic in the creation of the law ^^.

The Emperor used the augustus privilege of his acts to bypass every law and to restrict them.

I know. I'm just trying to say the Republic and the Empire in Ancient Rome are effectively two separate and distinct political periods.

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The pdt of the Regional Assembly of Corsica who is registered as Nationalist (but who is independentist) and who came to power with the Regional Election of 2015 for the first time in the Isle told the question of autodetermination of Corsica will be posed in 10 years today.

The nationalists and independentists united their forces for the next elections to come. In the last Legislative national Election they came 1st ex aequo with the Right and sent 1 MP on 2 they had in the National Assembly (and arrived second in the other seat).

The North of the Isle has been won by the independentist.

The South has been kept by the Right but by a small margin.

They also denounce the actions in Catalonia.

But now the independentists have been clear, there will be a question of independence for Corsica in 10 years.

As I said 53% of French are open for a legal referendum, not Macron.

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4 hours ago, Sami said:

The pdt of the Regional Assembly of Corsica who is registered as Nationalist (but who is independentist) and who came to power with the Regional Election of 2015 for the first time in the Isle told the question of autodetermination of Corsica will be posed in 10 years today.

The nationalists and independentists united their forces for the next elections to come. In the last Legislative national Election they came 1st ex aequo with the Right and sent 1 MP on 2 they had in the National Assembly (and arrived second in the other seat).

The North of the Isle has been won by the independentist.

The South has been kept by the Right but by a small margin.

They also denounce the actions in Catalonia.

But now the independentists have been clear, there will be a question of independence for Corsica in 10 years.

As I said 53% of French are open for a legal referendum, not Macron.

But Corsica was almost won by Marine in the second roundr. Are there independentists that vote for the FN?

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16 minutes ago, lizarraba said:

But Corsica was almost won by Marine in the second roundr. Are there independentists that vote for the FN?

It's a question of history...

During a long time the Isle of Corsica has been attacked by the pirates and ravaged by the Ottomans who came to kept locals and bring them as slaves in their Empire...

And the flag of Corsica itself refers to a strong legend while the head of a dignitary of the "Maures" (Northern Africa People) has been beheaded after a strong battle between this people and the Corsicans.

Today this head is litteraly the flag of the Isle:

Drapeau de la Corse

This is seriously the flag of Corsica since 1980.

The people of Corsica has hence a long story of reluctence ragarding the Middle East and Northern African people who attacked them an tried to take people of their isle as slaves.

Maybe this can give a first explanation, the second is that the Young Corsicans are joining France for studes so the people over there is getting older than in others régions.

And more you're old, more technically you're voting in the Right.

A stude from 2002 also revealed that the seniors are fearing to security problem while they're not the most concerned, and as the Corsican people is more old than the others "regional peoples" this can explain too.

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5 hours ago, Sami said:

The pdt of the Regional Assembly of Corsica who is registered as Nationalist (but who is independentist) and who came to power with the Regional Election of 2015 for the first time in the Isle told the question of autodetermination of Corsica will be posed in 10 years today.

The nationalists and independentists united their forces for the next elections to come. In the last Legislative national Election they came 1st ex aequo with the Right and sent 1 MP on 2 they had in the National Assembly (and arrived second in the other seat).

The North of the Isle has been won by the independentist.

The South has been kept by the Right but by a small margin.

They also denounce the actions in Catalonia.

But now the independentists have been clear, there will be a question of independence for Corsica in 10 years.

As I said 53% of French are open for a legal referendum, not Macron.

maybe the bonaparte pretender can be king of corica

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