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Catalonia Independence Referendum

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

But using the same word is not historically genuine. Colonization, overt conquest, and political and economic subversion of a nation are phenomena and usually lead to different situations when all is said even long down the road. As a very well-versed armchair historian, I know this well. Although all can one day, centuries down the road (today, basically), lead to these referenda, the terms and their meanings shouldn't just be jumbled for convenience, especially when people who were overtly conquered (the Catalans or Kurds), or subverted (the Scots and Quebecois), are stated as legitimately "colonized" people, when people who REALLY were colonized in the true sense of the word (First Nations and Native Americans) are NOT recognized as being colonized. That labelling is frankly an insult to the intelligence. I don't know what they gave the members of the UN think tank or research group who came up with that labelling the qualifications for them, but it should have been LIFE!

Indeed the word colonialism is really easy to use.

It's the ideology of the will to occupy a territory outside its own country, etending him outside its borders so.

But like I told you for the ONU Algeria was not France for France Algeria was, there is the same for some territories under USA's administration like you said, the Palos territory untill 1994 in example.

For me the first nations like Catalonia or the Kurds should all be free to declare themself if they want to stay or to leave their country by a referendum, as soon as they want to organize it and let to their only will without government control of it.

Otherwise the Constitution becomes an instrument of occupation.

That is also why I am in favor of a free referendum about the future of Corsica when they will ask it to our country.

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1 minute ago, Sami said:

Indeed the word colonialism is really easy to use.

It's the ideology of the will to occupy a territory outside its own country, etending him outside its borders so.

But like I told you for the ONU Algeria was not France for France Algeria was, there is the same for some territories under USA's administration like you said, the Palos territory untill 1994 in example.

For me the first nations like Catalonia or the Kurds should all be free to declare themself if they want to stay or to leave their country by a referendum, as soon as they want to organize it and let to their only will without government control of it.

Otherwise the Constitution becomes an instrument of occupation.

That is also why I am in favor of a free referendum about the future of Corsica when they will ask it to our country.

Having Corsica leave would be such a blow to France. The birthplace of one of their three, maybe four, greatest leaders in their history as a nation (which goes back to the 9th or 10th Century). At least, a symbolic blow, I guess.

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2 hours ago, lizarraba said:

IMG-20170930-WA0009.thumb.jpg.1c96bb63a6133721ef357670937d4e86.jpg

SÍ: YES to independence

NO: No 

The lower and the middle class support unionism, the rich people support the independence.

I learned that 1300 polling stations have been closed by the police.

Do you believe they will open others?

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27 minutes ago, Sami said:

I learned that 1300 polling stations have been closed by the police.

Do you believe they will open others?

Yes, but not as the government of Catalonia want.

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6 minutes ago, lizarraba said:

Yes, but not as the government of Catalonia want.

Is that the regional government could open others tomorrow in secret places like hospitals? The hidden polling stations.

For me you should put Rajoy out if the NO wins. He as a leader of the PP is responsible of all the success of the sovereignist movement by acting with a far-right consideration and since 2012 created the conditions of a free Catalonia.

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I think the crackdown by the government is creating more sympathy for the pro-independence movement which isn't good for Spain or the unionists.  I am thinking that if the vote goes on tomorrow, the people will vote in favor of independence.

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1 hour ago, jvikings1 said:

I think the crackdown by the government is creating more sympathy for the pro-independence movement which isn't good for Spain or the unionists.  I am thinking that if the vote goes on tomorrow, the people will vote in favor of independence.

I find that, historically, nations faced with independence or self-determinations movements only tend to gain popular, international support at all in suppressing or not caving into them if they successfully manage to portray the movement, often through spin-doctoring, as being ONLY and COMPLETELY assaociated in most of the world's minds wiith terrorist groups which may or not be the majority or strongest elements of those movements, and diminish the visibility, legitimacy, and credibility in public opinions of any more peaceful elements or legimte grievances behind the PR shield of "terrorism," such as was successfully done for quite a while in the cases of Northern Ireland, the Basque Country, Palestine, Chechnya, and Rajasthan (Indian Punjab).

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5 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

I'm thinking of making a Catalonia 2017 campaign.

The referendum, or a constiuent assembly or parliament of a hypothetical sovereign nation resulting from it?

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When I finish up my Reichstag 1871 scenario and another one I'm working on that I've only yet discussed with @vcczar, I'm planning a series of 13 scenarios around the fall of the USSR - the 1989 Soviet Congress of People's Deputies election, the 1990 Russian Congress of People's Deputies election, and eleven other 1990 Union Republic Supreme Soviet elections (as, even despite what was going on at the time, the 1990 Kazakhstan, Tajikkistan, and Uzbekistan Supreme Soviet elections were still not contested in any real sense). I'm currently just working through a few difficult parts in the above-mentioned current projects (and then I'll have to see if they actually play without crashing, and then get some playtests first, but most of the basics are done).

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4 minutes ago, Patine said:

When I finish up my Reichstag 1871 scenario and another one I'm working on that I've only yet discussed with @vcczar, I'm planning a series of 13 scenarios around the fall of the USSR - the 1989 Soviet Congress of People's Deputies election, the 1990 Russian Congress of People's Deputies election, and eleven other 1990 Union Republic Supreme Soviet elections (as, even despite what was going on at the time, the 1990 Kazakhstan, Tajikkistan, and Uzbekistan Supreme Soviet elections were still not contested in any real sense). I'm currently just working through a few difficult parts in the above-mentioned current projects (and then I'll have to see if they actually play without crashing, and then get some playtests first, but most of the basics are done).

Sounds interesting.I can help provide resources.

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Just now, NYrepublican said:

Sounds interesting.I can help provide resources.

Maps of everything listed other than the Soviet Federal map and Russia and Ukraine would be a great help. ;)

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2 minutes ago, NYrepublican said:

Sounds interesting.I can help provide resources.

I have maps of the other Union Republics as they were subdivided in 1990 from Wikipedia I could send you.

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Quite upsetting how at least 761 people were injured today because of them exercising their democratic right.

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Just now, QuickHead555 said:

Quite upsetting how at least 761 people were injured today because of them exercising their democratic right.

I think it was 76 and not 761 but in any case I saw a news report about it and the scenes were pretty disturbing.

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Just now, SiorafasNaCillini said:

I think it was 76 and not 761 but in any case I saw a news report about it and the scenes were pretty disturbing.

It was 761, according to The Associated Press, BBC, and other sources.

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4 minutes ago, QuickHead555 said:

It was 761, according to The Associated Press, BBC, and other sources.

If that figure's accurate then that's atrocious.

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