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Catalonia Independence Referendum

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17 minutes ago, jvikings1 said:

The EU is defending the response because the people doesn't care about the people of Europe or their opinions.  They only care about increasing their own power and advancing their European Project (AKA their dream of a United States of Europe).

Funny, I can't off hand think of a national government, or inter-governmental organization, that TRULY cares about all, or even the majority of it's people, except where such shows of benevolence are politically expedient. But forgive the cynicsm...

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1 hour ago, Patine said:

Funny, I can't off hand think of a national government, or inter-governmental organization, that TRULY cares about all, or even the majority of it's people, except where such shows of benevolence are politically expedient. But forgive the cynicsm...

I admit he's not so untrue.

More european is a government, more federalist he can be in supporting the federacy.

I have to admit it and I am turning on the EU option.

Our President Macron who is the most pro EU ruler said that he was 100% behind Rajoy and told he was his only counterpart.

Cobryn and Miliband said UK should criticize Spain.

Slovenia unofficially endorsed Catalonia like good parts of Switzerland.

Generally rulers are disturbed by the acts of Rajoy but stay quietely behind him, asking him to calm down.

I am to the edge of a flip-flop, I am a Social Liberal in favor of an economic and diplomatic union as juridical and security union, but I am fully with the Catalan will of independence.

So if the European rulers do not take positions my vote will go to eurosceptics movements in the next European Election independently of my general election vote.

For the moment some European rulers condamned the acts of Rajoy like the PM of Belgium or the ruler of the European Liberals.

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3 hours ago, Sami said:

I admit he's not so untrue.

More european is a government, more federalist he can be in supporting the federacy.

I have to admit it and I am turning on the EU option.

Our President Macron who is the most pro EU ruler said that he was 100% behind Rajoy and told he was his only counterpart.

Cobryn and Miliband said UK should criticize Spain.

Slovenia unofficially endorsed Catalonia like good parts of Switzerland.

Generally rulers are disturbed by the acts of Rajoy but stay quietely behind him, asking him to calm down.

I am to the edge of a flip-flop, I am a Social Liberal in favor of an economic and diplomatic union as juridical and security union, but I am fully with the Catalan will of independence.

So if the European rulers do not take positions my vote will go to eurosceptics movements in the next European Election independently of my general election vote.

For the moment some European rulers condamned the acts of Rajoy like the PM of Belgium or the ruler of the European Liberals.

ok so was the csa right in wanting to leave the usa? in that belguim shouldnt be broken up because of liberalism. why not we just break up this country for the same reason? by the way catalonia independence supporters are NOT NATIONALIST THEY ARE COMMUNIST AND PRO EU. 

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53 minutes ago, Presidentinsertname said:

ok so was the csa right in wanting to leave the usa? in that belguim shouldnt be broken up because of liberalism. why not we just break up this country for the same reason? by the way catalonia independence supporters are NOT NATIONALIST THEY ARE COMMUNIST AND PRO EU. 

The Communist faction only appears to be a minority part of the independence movement with a marginalized say. Calling them all "communists" as a blanket term is disingenuous and shows a lack of education and understanding of what's going on.

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Just now, Patine said:

The Communist faction only appears to be a minority part of the independence movement with a marginalized say. Calling them all "communists" as a blanket term is disingenuous and shows a lack of education and understanding of what's going on.

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/09/catalonia-independence-referendum-spain-podemos

1 minute ago, SiorafasNaCillini said:

Communist is one of those words that has become meaningless through overuse.

 

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1 minute ago, Patine said:

I think you're just like Joseph McCarthy, and just call everyone you don't like or sharply disagree with a "communist."

Indeed, in Europe the Center is the most pro European.

The Communist want to reform or to leave EU while the Far Right is ambivalent on the option.

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Based on what I found in PMI-UK (testing it using that which has worked in the past when troubleshooting) the regions were just made incorrectly I'll re-do them now.

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The Constitutionnal Court of Spain announced they will close and bloc the Parliament session of Monday to prevent the MPs of Catalonia to declare independence.

If the National Assembly of Catalonia bypass it and that they finish arrested, I could officially tell you that Louis XVI was a pure democrat compared to the Spanish Democracy.

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@Patine We discussed about Corsica earlier.

A poll published today revealed that 79% of French were shocked of the Spanish violence against the Catalan People while only 52% of French were thinking that the referendum should be took into account.

47% of French however agree with the Spanish consideration of the referendum but 79% are yet shocked by the police violence.

The most interesting thing is the question "Would you support a legal referendum of autodetermination about Corsica and the Pays-Basque?"

75% of French support a legal referendum of independence for Corsica.

69% of French support a legal referendum on the same issue about the independence of Pays-Basque.

I am really happy to see that my people is not like the some morons I saw on Facebook spreading Pro Rajoy propaganda.

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37 minutes ago, Sami said:

The Constitutionnal Court of Spain announced they will close and bloc the Parliament session of Monday to prevent the MPs of Catalonia to declare independence.

If the National Assembly of Catalonia bypass it and that they finish arrested, I could officially tell you that Louis XVI was a pure democrat compared to the Spanish Democracy.

Perhaps Louis XVI, but his younger brother Charles X in the Bourbon Restoration in France after Napoleon's defeat was much less charitable to much movements and sentiment. And he was never beheaded in the end...

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15 minutes ago, Patine said:

Perhaps Louis XVI, but his younger brother Charles X in the Bourbon Restoration in France after Napoleon's defeat was much less charitable to much movements and sentiment. And he was never beheaded in the end...

I totally agree about him xD.

However Louis XVI was still a man who was not believing into the end of the society order or the privileges (due to his education) even if he was not opposed to a Constitution, not the best democratic guy of the world even if he was quite intellectual guy.

My point is that a king in the late 1780's could become more democratic than a modern Democracy due to a PM...

About the poll I putted above, in detail the most "Pro Rajoy" party is EN MARCHE where only 31% of their members are in favor of a legal referendum for Corsica and Pays Basque.

It can explain why Macron is the most pro Rajoy European leader.

Small correction: Only 53% of French support a legal referendum on both regions (Corsica and Pays-Basque, 75% is the leftist voters) but proud to see that it is still a majority of wise people who are aware of that Democracy means.

The others numbers are yet good for Spain and others considérations.

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@JDrakeify @willpaddyg @daons @LegolasRedbard @Prussian1871 @wolves @SirLagsalott @michaelsdiamonds @victorraiders @Patine @Falcon @jnewt @President Garrett Walker @Reagan04 @Conservative Elector 2 @SeanFKennedy @vcczar @jvikings1 @harveyrayson2 @lizarraba @TheMiddlePolitical @CalebsParadox @MrPrez @msc123123 @NYrepublican  @RI Democrat @servo75 @Presidentinsertname  @ThePotatoWalrus @Sunnymentoaddict @TheLiberalKitten @Quebecois @avatarmushi @Sami

An interesting note on this topic. If you look at almost all Wikipedia articles about separatist groups, ethnicities and regions that tend to produce them, and ones that could easily produce them, if you scroll down to the list of other languages that analog articles exist in Wikipedia for, almost all of them have analog articles in Catalan. However, analog articles are quite rare for many other types of topic outside the common and broad-scope articles that tend to have tonnes of analog language articles.

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14 minutes ago, Patine said:

@JDrakeify @willpaddyg @daons @LegolasRedbard @Prussian1871 @wolves @SirLagsalott @michaelsdiamonds @victorraiders @Patine @Falcon @jnewt @President Garrett Walker @Reagan04 @Conservative Elector 2 @SeanFKennedy @vcczar @jvikings1 @harveyrayson2 @lizarraba @TheMiddlePolitical @CalebsParadox @MrPrez @msc123123 @NYrepublican  @RI Democrat @servo75 @Presidentinsertname  @ThePotatoWalrus @Sunnymentoaddict @TheLiberalKitten @Quebecois @avatarmushi @Sami

An interesting note on this topic. If you look at almost all Wikipedia articles about separatist groups, ethnicities and regions that tend to produce them, and ones that could easily produce them, if you scroll down to the list of other languages that analog articles exist in Wikipedia for, almost all of them have analog articles in Catalan. However, analog articles are quite rare for many other types of topic outside the common and broad-scope articles that tend to have tonnes of analog language articles.

Compare the Spanish and the Catalan page and the polls they put:

https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referèndum_sobre_la_independència_de_Catalunya

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referéndum_de_independencia_de_Cataluña_de_2017

In the Catalan Wikipédia they put together the polls of voters "sure to go to vote" (which advantage the YES) and the moderate global voters.

In the Spanish they scrap every polls after the last and most recent which gone in their favor. So they also scrap YES polls who are as good as the last they putted.

Propaganda from both sides depending the language on Wikipédia.

I consider the best poll are the actions of the Spanish government which was apparently the most sure to loose the referendum however they would have accepted a deal about a referendum.

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@JDrakeify @willpaddyg @daons @LegolasRedbard @Prussian1871 @wolves @SirLagsalott @michaelsdiamonds @victorraiders @Patine @Falcon @jnewt @President Garrett Walker @Reagan04 @Conservative Elector 2 @SeanFKennedy @vcczar @jvikings1 @harveyrayson2 @lizarraba @TheMiddlePolitical @CalebsParadox @MrPrez @msc123123 @NYrepublican  @RI Democrat @servo75 @Presidentinsertname  @ThePotatoWalrus @Sunnymentoaddict @TheLiberalKitten @Quebecois @avatarmushi @Sami

Talk about uncanny (or maybe suspicious) timing. Jalal Talabani, the founder and organizer of the PUK, and the first Kurdish, or non-Arab period, post-Ottoman era head-of-state of Iraq, dies of a stroke less than a week after the Kurdish Independence Referendum.

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I don't agree with the Independence of Catalonia. I think that these popular movements; Trump-like, Brexit-like, Le Pen-like, Catalonia-Independence-like, and those type of voters that exist everywhere, that try to blame economic problems on the current system or status quo is a way to play to peoples fantasies.  Independence will not make Catalonia more powerful economically or politically, that's a fact.  Fact of the matter is that if independence is achieved, Spain will oppose to Catalonia being part of the European Union, and we all know that Spain's veto will shrink Catalonias chances of becoming a full member of the EU. It's very silly to think that a new state will be more powerful without the intervention of Washington, or Madrid, or London on "our lives"... that's silly. Fact of the matter is that these types of independence sirens are propelled by populists and populism has made a lot of damage to the world.  

In today's world it is very politically expedient to blame it all on the elites, blame the economy on the elites, blame poverty on the status quo, and behind that blamming is a notion that by voting for independence, or by voting for Trump, the status quo will be destroyed or changed fundamentally. Please, this is not reality. Not a single political system has changed fundamentally by anyone ever, Obama's promise of change, actually changed Washington? he did not change a thing about how Washington works. "Independent" Macron was never an outsider on his speeches, and even if he was one(like Trump on his speeches), not France or America's political system has changed since their respective wins.  Trump's drain the swamp was that, a promise, a populist and political one. Nothing will change on the corruption issue during Trump, and mark my words, America has not seen the worst of what will happen to Donald Trump politically. 

It is politically expedient to run as an independent in today's world and attack the traditional parties, see Spain for example. The bipartisanship between the PP and PPSOE ruled for decades and fell in 2015 and 2016 general elections. The PP and the PSOE remain the strongest, but neither of them have the majority, and new political parties are emerging everwhere, just because the system takes too long to fulfill any promise. Any promise. Historically changes take too long, fundamental one's.  Let's say Gay marriage? How long did that took? I don't know how long humans have been on earth, but certainly took a lot of time.  Fundamental changes take time, and people have to realize that after election X, things would certainly not change very much on that 4-5-6 year period.   The status quo is out there and has absolutely no plans on leaving fundamentally.  It can evolve, make small progress on whatever-social or economic issues, but never changes fundamentally. 

So Catalonia will not be more powerful or richer, fact of the matter is that Spain's veto in the EU will make Catalonia a modern day Cuba, a state in Europe completely disregarded internationally because of the minority-referendum results that triggered a declaration of Independence. Spain will replace Catalonian products for French, Portuguese etc. Who is going to trade with Catalonia, Tunisia? Ethiopia? Spain will embargo if necessary the Catalonian products, at least put a very high tax. We all know also that Catalonia is more dependent on Spain, than Spain on Catalonia. If given the chance, Spain has more room to make Catalonia suffer economically and politically. So what is this notion that independence will make Catalonia more rich, powerful or better? 

And for what? Being independent? What are the fundamental differences between Spain and Catalonia? Catalan? please, I have travelled all over Spain and I see no fundamental differences, this is not Africa or Middle east that was divided using a ruler.  The ones that like the independence obviously see fundamental differences because the populists that want independence have moved forward with this idea for too many decades. Example: Catalan was spoken by a minority several decades ago, and now more than 90% is fluent. What is that? besides a reaffirmation of a past culture, it's the sirens of the populists using that past culture as a way of saying to the Catalonians "we are sooooo different from Spain, we have our own language", sirens of opportunists that want to seize power no matter the crazy idea they put forward, and the same ones that want power at whatever cost playing to fantasies of the people. Tell them that unemployment is Spains to blame, the King is the one to blame, the Monarchy is the one to blame, Rajoy is the one to blame, PP/PSOE are the ones to blame, Madrid as the capital is the one to blame. That's today's argum,ent EVERYWHERE. Use peoples fantasies and frustrations, to propel irresponsible ideas.   

Who is better then? The ones that will declare independence on Monday with a 40% turn out referendum knowing the political and economic implications?  They are the ones that will take Catalonia to a "Make Catalonia Great Again"? This is not serious at all for the average-working class individual.  The average-working class will suffer from Spains retaliations. The only ones that will benefit from this independence are the ones in power in Catalonia, they would definitely have more money to steal away, but certainly not to make education, health and poverty improve. It will get worse, at least on the short-medium term. The Generalitat is no better than Rajoy, or Madrid, or the King, or the central government. This is not a responsible referendum or declaratory of independence. This is not splitting the Kurds from the rest of Irak.. This is not Irak, that has to be divided. What are the fundamental differences between Catalonia and Spain? Is it something huge like the situation in Irak? and nobody is seriously planning dividing Irak, and that is a country that has to be divided. 

I have to note also that police force will only make the independentists more popular with the people that is undecided about this issue. The swing voters, famous in the United States, but present in all countries. The ones that are not sure about this, will definitely go for the independentists if the Spanish government pursues a path of violence and force. This is an issue to be decided in the ballot box, with a strong as hell NO campaign. The abstention strategy will not work in the long term, especially NOT if the YES wins with 90%, even in a minority turn out.  It is not popular today to use the police force in the west (Europe and US). Imagine if President Trump uses the police force against people voting in California, you know how the media will treat him. Fortunately there is still support internationally for Spain after that horrible videos of the Spanish police beating old women and making them bleed because she was going to cast a ballot. The people are not the ones to blame or hold accountable, is the irresponsible leadership in the Generalitat Palace in Barcelona. 

Using the police force, is not a long-term strategy in the eyes of the world, because the Spanish government is acting as the bad guy. And the bad guys are certainly the ones in the Generalitat Palace in Barcelona.  They are the one's to hold accountable and make them accountable for all the corruption that has been taking place in Catalonia by the independentists parties for decades. The YES people should know more about the Independentists leaders personal fortunes, bank accounts and tax returns. Maybe then they would acknowledge they are not the ones that should run Catalonia as a Spanish region or even as an Independent one.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, PoliticalStudent said:

I don't agree with the Independence of Catalonia. I think that these popular movements; Trump-like, Brexit-like, Le Pen-like, Catalonia-Independence-like, and those type of voters that exist everywhere, that try to blame economic problems on the current system or status quo is a way to play to peoples fantasies.  Independence will not make Catalonia more powerful economically or politically, that's a fact.  Fact of the matter is that if independence is achieved, Spain will oppose to Catalonia being part of the European Union, and we all know that Spain's veto will shrink Catalonias chances of becoming a full member of the EU. It's very silly to think that a new state will be more powerful without the intervention of Washington, or Madrid, or London on "our lives"... that's silly. Fact of the matter is that these types of independence sirens are propelled by populists and populism has made a lot of damage to the world.  

In today's world it is very politically expedient to blame it all on the elites, blame the economy on the elites, blame poverty on the status quo, and behind that blamming is a notion that by voting for independence, or by voting for Trump, the status quo will be destroyed or changed fundamentally. Please, this is not reality. Not a single political system has changed fundamentally by anyone ever, Obama's promise of change, actually changed Washington? he did not change a thing about how Washington works. "Independent" Macron was never an outsider on his speeches, and even if he was one(like Trump on his speeches), not France or America's political system has changed since their respective wins.  Trump's drain the swamp was that, a promise, a populist and political one. Nothing will change on the corruption issue during Trump, and mark my words, America has not seen the worst of what will happen to Donald Trump politically. 

It is politically expedient to run as an independent in today's world and attack the traditional parties, see Spain for example. The bipartisanship between the PP and PPSOE ruled for decades and fell in 2015 and 2016 general elections. The PP and the PSOE remain the strongest, but neither of them have the majority, and new political parties are emerging everwhere, just because the system takes too long to fulfill any promise. Any promise. Historically changes take too long, fundamental one's.  Let's say Gay marriage? How long did that took? I don't know how long humans have been on earth, but certainly took a lot of time.  Fundamental changes take time, and people have to realize that after election X, things would certainly not change very much on that 4-5-6 year period.   The status quo is out there and has absolutely no plans on leaving fundamentally.  It can evolve, make small progress on whatever-social or economic issues, but never changes fundamentally. 

So Catalonia will not be more powerful or richer, fact of the matter is that Spain's veto in the EU will make Catalonia a modern day Cuba, a state in Europe completely disregarded internationally because of the minority-referendum results that triggered a declaration of Independence. Spain will replace Catalonian products for French, Portuguese etc. Who is going to trade with Catalonia, Tunisia? Ethiopia? Spain will embargo if necessary the Catalonian products, at least put a very high tax. We all know also that Catalonia is more dependent on Spain, than Spain on Catalonia. If given the chance, Spain has more room to make Catalonia suffer economically and politically. So what is this notion that independence will make Catalonia more rich, powerful or better? 

And for what? Being independent? What are the fundamental differences between Spain and Catalonia? Catalan? please, I have travelled all over Spain and I see no fundamental differences, this is not Africa or Middle east that was divided using a ruler.  The ones that like the independence obviously see fundamental differences because the populists that want independence have moved forward with this idea for too many decades. Example: Catalan was spoken by a minority several decades ago, and now more than 90% is fluent. What is that? besides a reaffirmation of a past culture, it's the sirens of the populists using that past culture as a way of saying to the Catalonians "we are sooooo different from Spain, we have our own language", sirens of opportunists that want to seize power no matter the crazy idea they put forward, and the same ones that want power at whatever cost playing to fantasies of the people. Tell them that unemployment is Spains to blame, the King is the one to blame, the Monarchy is the one to blame, Rajoy is the one to blame, PP/PSOE are the ones to blame, Madrid as the capital is the one to blame. That's today's argum,ent EVERYWHERE. Use peoples fantasies and frustrations, to propel irresponsible ideas.   

Who is better then? The ones that will declare independence on Monday with a 40% turn out referendum knowing the political and economic implications?  They are the ones that will take Catalonia to a "Make Catalonia Great Again"? This is not serious at all for the average-working class individual.  The average-working class will suffer from Spains retaliations. The only ones that will benefit from this independence are the ones in power in Catalonia, they would definitely have more money to steal away, but certainly not to make education, health and poverty improve. It will get worse, at least on the short-medium term. The Generalitat is no better than Rajoy, or Madrid, or the King, or the central government. This is not a responsible referendum or declaratory of independence. This is not splitting the Kurds from the rest of Irak.. This is not Irak, that has to be divided. What are the fundamental differences between Catalonia and Spain? Is it something huge like the situation in Irak? and nobody is seriously planning dividing Irak, and that is a country that has to be divided. 

I have to note also that police force will only make the independentists more popular with the people that is undecided about this issue. The swing voters, famous in the United States, but present in all countries. The ones that are not sure about this, will definitely go for the independentists if the Spanish government pursues a path of violence and force. This is an issue to be decided in the ballot box, with a strong as hell NO campaign. The abstention strategy will not work in the long term, especially NOT if the YES wins with 90%, even in a minority turn out.  It is not popular today to use the police force in the west (Europe and US). Imagine if President Trump uses the police force against people voting in California, you know how the media will treat him. Fortunately there is still support internationally for Spain after that horrible videos of the Spanish police beating old women and making them bleed because she was going to cast a ballot. The people are not the ones to blame or hold accountable, is the irresponsible leadership in the Generalitat Palace in Barcelona. 

Using the police force, is not a long-term strategy in the eyes of the world, because the Spanish government is acting as the bad guy. And the bad guys are certainly the ones in the Generalitat Palace in Barcelona.  They are the one's to hold accountable and make them accountable for all the corruption that has been taking place in Catalonia by the independentists parties for decades. The YES people should know more about the Independentists leaders personal fortunes, bank accounts and tax returns. Maybe then they would acknowledge they are not the ones that should run Catalonia as a Spanish region or even as an Independent one.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

First, to be fair, there a few leaders who have fundamentally changed how their countries run and work institutionally. Lenin and Mao come to mind. But they pulled out all the stops and left no stone of the old regime unturned. That being said, I must agree with the dangers of populism in general and the lack of real results and the illusory qualities and false promises that tend to lead people to vote for populist leaders. That point I've been trying to make on these forums (being disagreed with by many, often irrationally so) for a while now. However, the fact that populism has, quite often, gone from being the violent, insurgent, and terrorist (and not Moslem terrorist - Trump's uniformed quip on that is wrong so many of his others) groups like the ones behind the Market Street, Vine Street, and Wall Street, and many equivalent bombings in Europe, the assassinations of Tsar Alexander II of Russia, King George I of Greece, King Peter I and Queen Draga of Serbia, Empress Consort Elizabeth and Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie of the Dual Monarchy of Austria-Hungary, President Henri Sadi of France, and President William McKinley of the United States, as well as the Easter Uprising, the Red February Uprising, the nastiness of various Greek secret societies in former Ottoman Balkans, Pancho Villa (a "revolutionary" who was more of a roving bandit by conduct), and others of the period around the 20th Century, is an evolution, of sorts to more civil political discussion and debate on the issue. However, I personally feel that populism is a "sugar daddy" or "wish fulfillment" style of campaigning and not really based on realism. I mean (and I know I'll get flack for saying this by knee-jerk reaction) Hitler was a populist, and though his platform wasn't even remotely the same in substance, it was the same campaign and promotion style in general. So I agree with you @PoliticalStudent on the flaws, and even folly, but the ersatz appeal of populism.

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6 hours ago, PoliticalStudent said:

I don't agree with the Independence of Catalonia. I think that these popular movements; Trump-like, Brexit-like, Le Pen-like, Catalonia-Independence-like, and those type of voters that exist everywhere, that try to blame economic problems on the current system or status quo is a way to play to peoples fantasies.  Independence will not make Catalonia more powerful economically or politically, that's a fact.  Fact of the matter is that if independence is achieved, Spain will oppose to Catalonia being part of the European Union, and we all know that Spain's veto will shrink Catalonias chances of becoming a full member of the EU. It's very silly to think that a new state will be more powerful without the intervention of Washington, or Madrid, or London on "our lives"... that's silly. Fact of the matter is that these types of independence sirens are propelled by populists and populism has made a lot of damage to the world.  

In today's world it is very politically expedient to blame it all on the elites, blame the economy on the elites, blame poverty on the status quo, and behind that blamming is a notion that by voting for independence, or by voting for Trump, the status quo will be destroyed or changed fundamentally. Please, this is not reality. Not a single political system has changed fundamentally by anyone ever, Obama's promise of change, actually changed Washington? he did not change a thing about how Washington works. "Independent" Macron was never an outsider on his speeches, and even if he was one(like Trump on his speeches), not France or America's political system has changed since their respective wins.  Trump's drain the swamp was that, a promise, a populist and political one. Nothing will change on the corruption issue during Trump, and mark my words, America has not seen the worst of what will happen to Donald Trump politically. 

It is politically expedient to run as an independent in today's world and attack the traditional parties, see Spain for example. The bipartisanship between the PP and PPSOE ruled for decades and fell in 2015 and 2016 general elections. The PP and the PSOE remain the strongest, but neither of them have the majority, and new political parties are emerging everwhere, just because the system takes too long to fulfill any promise. Any promise. Historically changes take too long, fundamental one's.  Let's say Gay marriage? How long did that took? I don't know how long humans have been on earth, but certainly took a lot of time.  Fundamental changes take time, and people have to realize that after election X, things would certainly not change very much on that 4-5-6 year period.   The status quo is out there and has absolutely no plans on leaving fundamentally.  It can evolve, make small progress on whatever-social or economic issues, but never changes fundamentally. 

So Catalonia will not be more powerful or richer, fact of the matter is that Spain's veto in the EU will make Catalonia a modern day Cuba, a state in Europe completely disregarded internationally because of the minority-referendum results that triggered a declaration of Independence. Spain will replace Catalonian products for French, Portuguese etc. Who is going to trade with Catalonia, Tunisia? Ethiopia? Spain will embargo if necessary the Catalonian products, at least put a very high tax. We all know also that Catalonia is more dependent on Spain, than Spain on Catalonia. If given the chance, Spain has more room to make Catalonia suffer economically and politically. So what is this notion that independence will make Catalonia more rich, powerful or better? 

And for what? Being independent? What are the fundamental differences between Spain and Catalonia? Catalan? please, I have travelled all over Spain and I see no fundamental differences, this is not Africa or Middle east that was divided using a ruler.  The ones that like the independence obviously see fundamental differences because the populists that want independence have moved forward with this idea for too many decades. Example: Catalan was spoken by a minority several decades ago, and now more than 90% is fluent. What is that? besides a reaffirmation of a past culture, it's the sirens of the populists using that past culture as a way of saying to the Catalonians "we are sooooo different from Spain, we have our own language", sirens of opportunists that want to seize power no matter the crazy idea they put forward, and the same ones that want power at whatever cost playing to fantasies of the people. Tell them that unemployment is Spains to blame, the King is the one to blame, the Monarchy is the one to blame, Rajoy is the one to blame, PP/PSOE are the ones to blame, Madrid as the capital is the one to blame. That's today's argum,ent EVERYWHERE. Use peoples fantasies and frustrations, to propel irresponsible ideas.   

Who is better then? The ones that will declare independence on Monday with a 40% turn out referendum knowing the political and economic implications?  They are the ones that will take Catalonia to a "Make Catalonia Great Again"? This is not serious at all for the average-working class individual.  The average-working class will suffer from Spains retaliations. The only ones that will benefit from this independence are the ones in power in Catalonia, they would definitely have more money to steal away, but certainly not to make education, health and poverty improve. It will get worse, at least on the short-medium term. The Generalitat is no better than Rajoy, or Madrid, or the King, or the central government. This is not a responsible referendum or declaratory of independence. This is not splitting the Kurds from the rest of Irak.. This is not Irak, that has to be divided. What are the fundamental differences between Catalonia and Spain? Is it something huge like the situation in Irak? and nobody is seriously planning dividing Irak, and that is a country that has to be divided. 

I have to note also that police force will only make the independentists more popular with the people that is undecided about this issue. The swing voters, famous in the United States, but present in all countries. The ones that are not sure about this, will definitely go for the independentists if the Spanish government pursues a path of violence and force. This is an issue to be decided in the ballot box, with a strong as hell NO campaign. The abstention strategy will not work in the long term, especially NOT if the YES wins with 90%, even in a minority turn out.  It is not popular today to use the police force in the west (Europe and US). Imagine if President Trump uses the police force against people voting in California, you know how the media will treat him. Fortunately there is still support internationally for Spain after that horrible videos of the Spanish police beating old women and making them bleed because she was going to cast a ballot. The people are not the ones to blame or hold accountable, is the irresponsible leadership in the Generalitat Palace in Barcelona. 

Using the police force, is not a long-term strategy in the eyes of the world, because the Spanish government is acting as the bad guy. And the bad guys are certainly the ones in the Generalitat Palace in Barcelona.  They are the one's to hold accountable and make them accountable for all the corruption that has been taking place in Catalonia by the independentists parties for decades. The YES people should know more about the Independentists leaders personal fortunes, bank accounts and tax returns. Maybe then they would acknowledge they are not the ones that should run Catalonia as a Spanish region or even as an Independent one.  

 

Catalonia not joining the EU will be another blow to the already fragile EU.  Plus, Spain will be hit by an independent Catalonia as well.  It is one of the richer regions, and Spain is stuck in recession.

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